Philosophy Now Forum

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 4:34 pm

Our primary difference is the question of universal purpose. What is the purpose of the universe we exist in and the purpose of Man within it? It is an intolerable question in modern times so those who take it seriously move underground.

The universe does not have a purpose other than to just BE

The universe does not give a shit about you. Because this you that you think you are doesn't exist.
The universe doesn't give a shit about a cat either, thankfully, the cat is totally unaware of this shocking revelation, because cats cannot tell themselves they are a cat, they have no concept of having a SELF...cats are pure selfless beingness...

The only purpose is what the you that you think you are makes up for yourself, the self that is made-up via conceptual knowledge.
Within that fiction, yes purpose exists, and yes, the world is what ever you make it. If your made up self has a knowledge, then you have the power to create greatness and goodness and evil and violence too, but that's all within the dream of separation, the idea that there is a separate you in the universe. When in reality there is no such you in anything...everything is in you as a concept known, you are essentially pure selfless beingness...with the added twist of having an unidentified alien passenger along for the free ride.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 4:34 pmSome believe some personal God wants to tell you what to do and others believe Man invents it or some God imagines it but none of these ideas satisfy the scientific mind concerned with purpose so an artificial division between science and religion remains dominant

If nothing can be built on your thesis which allows a person to see how the laws of science and the laws of being are complimentary, there is nothing for us to build upon since for you the universe and Man within it has no objective purpose.

But this comment is just another story arising in no one, from nowhere believed to be real. In reality, within the grand scheme of things, the story is totally meaningless...because reality just flows on and on exactly the way it's meant to flow regardless of what this alien parasitic imagined character thinks or feels about it...for there is no person on earth that can control or determine the flow of this life as to how it should or would flow. Impersonal Life decides where it wants to flow, not man-made ailen ghosts.

WHY? ...because You could be outside walking quite innocently one day, where one minute you haven't a care in the world and the next minute a plane suddenly drops out of the sky and lands on your head.
That's when the movie of what you imagined your life to be goes blank ....

..... that's when ''real purpose'' is challenged into filling in the void left behind ( . . . . . . ) but who is going to fill in that gap on your behalf? ...no one ..why? because there is and never was a GAP to be filled.

In other words, the universe cannot tell itself anything or know anything, the knowing is all ONE...it doesn't have a spare self sitting around somehwere that it can tell...which means it doesn't belong to a single entity...except in a conceptual pipe dream.

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DAM

The universe does not have a purpose other than to just BE

The universe does not give a shit about you. Because this you that you think you are doesn't exist.

Agreed. The universe is a large living machine so why would it care about my thoughts? Existence is something else. We are unable to perceive the ineffable God or source. However we can perceive what it does. We may not know the purpose of this incredible machine but we can learn what it does. We can know the machine like a person knows what a car does. We cannot know what to be means without knowing what the universe and man within it does.

We can know that this machine transforms substances. Galaxies are one substance but devolve in the quality of their substances into stars and further devolve into planets. They exist together as the laws of being. We can measure what takes place in what Plato described as below the line into the visible universe. But why do we do it? Why do we transform substances?

The only purpose is what the you that you think you are makes up for yourself, the self that is made-up via conceptual knowledge.
Within that fiction, yes purpose exists, and yes, the world is what ever you make it. If your made up self has a knowledge, then you have the power to create greatness and goodness and evil and violence too, but that's all within the dream of separation, the idea that there is a separate you in the universe. When in reality there is no such you in anything...everything is in you as a concept known, you are essentially pure selfless beingness...with the added twist of having an unidentified alien passenger along for the free ride.

You don’t believe in objective fractions of the whole. Two halves and four quarters don’t exist in reality for you. For me I AM consists of the wholeness of I together with its ultimate division into lawful fractions which create the laws of being.

But this comment is just another story arising in no one, from nowhere believed to be real. In reality, within the grand scheme of things, the story is totally meaningless...because reality just flows on and on exactly the way it's meant to flow regardless of what this alien parasitic imagined character thinks or feels about it...for there is no person on earth that can control or determine the flow of this life as to how it should or would flow. Impersonal Life decides where it wants to flow, not man-made ailen ghosts.

You only accept the concept of “I” while I’m referring to the unification of the isness of I and the process of existence within it. The laws of existence take place within “Isness.”

If this is our situation, why bother with it? It is because of the complimentary processes of involution or away from our source and evolution or the return to our source. Involution describes the cat you wrote of. It is a creature of reaction following the process of dust to dust performing its cosmic necessity of transforming substances.

Man can become aware of having in addition to an animal necessity a conscious necessity which enables him to be more than the being potential for a cat. Non-secular philosophy And the essence of religion all are aimed at awakening to this potential but is rejected by the world. Some individuals are awakened by the great ideas and acquire a universal rather than a secular perspective. The universe isn’t here to serve us or imagine it. To the contrary Man can serve the universe either as an animal or a conscious being: the evolution of Man to become himself. How can Man serve this great living machine? It requires first the willingness to “know thyself and the need, the will, and the consciousness necessary to experience it for what it is. Without this beginning the rest is as Dostoyevsky described: pouring from the empty into the void.

DAM

The universe does not have a purpose other than to just BE

The universe does not give a shit about you. Because this you that you think you are doesn't exist.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 5:49 pmAgreed. The universe is a large living machine so why would it care about my thoughts? Existence is something else. We are unable to perceive the ineffable God or source. However we can perceive what it does. We may not know the purpose of this incredible machine but we can learn what it does. We can know the machine like a person knows what a car does. We cannot know what to be means without knowing what the universe and man within it does.

We can know that this machine transforms substances. Galaxies are one substance but devolve in the quality of their substances into stars and further devolve into planets. They exist together as the laws of being. We can measure what takes place in what Plato described as below the line into the visible universe. But why do we do it? Why do we transform substances?

I have always had a problem with WHY questions, because I couldn't ever find a conclusive definitive answer for any of them.

It's like WHY do I exist at all ? ...WHY is there something rather than nothing? ... these questions I can never answer.

It's like WHY does the colour 'yellow' change into the colour 'orange' when we add the colour 'red' ? It's like where did the 'yellow' go?

It's like where does my 'lap' go when I stand up from my chair?

It's like WHY was I born a human being and not born a cat or a bird, or WHY am I not a 'dustbin' or a 'shopping trolly' ?

It's like WHY am I a 'girl' and not a 'boy'?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 5:49 pm
You don’t believe in objective fractions of the whole. Two halves and four quarters don’t exist in reality for you. For me I AM consists of the wholeness of I together with its ultimate division into lawful fractions which create the laws of being.

When I read the above words I just see and hear bla bla bla...I'm being honest, I don't know what you mean.
I understand and totally respect that this obviously means something to you, but for me, it's just not what I would identify with as meaning anything that I could reply to and say yeah I get that. I no longer identify with a you as being me, I used to do though, that was before I realised there was no me. When I use the word 'me' I'm just refering to this reference point of this awareness HERE.
This awareness here absorbing some incoming data from what appears to be an external stimulant which then is processed as to what it is showing or informing me. Half, if not most of the time I have no idea what I am looking at or reading, except what I do know which is usually what I've made up about it, that makes sense to me here.

The word 'me' is another word for this aware sensing mechanism called the human body. I do not see this body as belonging to a 'me'

All I know is AWARENESS full stop, I've no idea what it is, or why it is, or where it comes from or how it got here or where it's going, or what it's reason or purpose for being is ...there's just THIS whatever THIS IS that is being aware. Can awareness be aware of WHY it is aware? ...not really. I'll ask it now...hello awareness WHY are you aware? ....I wait for an answer, and nothing happens, the question remains unanswered, all I hear in response to the question is pure silence.


Lets have a look...and see if there are answers to the WHY questions.

WHY is awareness aware?

WHY does awareness exist?

WHY does awareness ask questions?

WHY does awareness appear as a multitude of other things?

WHY does awareness feel as though it is a human being?

WHY does awareness feel as though being a human being is a really freaky idea, that can feel like madness?

WHY does awareness have to feel pain or pleasure or fear or panic or joy or wonder ?

WHY does awareness talk to itself?

WHY does awareness have this sack of blood and puss and sick and poo and wee and slime and goo following it everywhere it goes?

WHY does awareness not answer it's own questions?

WHY does awareness not answer the question to itself WHY do you do the things you do? or WHY does seeing seem like it's on the inside of the body looking out at an external reality that seems separate from the actual body mechanism?

WHY does dog awareness bark and cat awareness meow and cow awareness moo and human awareness form a language that can make it feel like it knows lots of knowledge but then when it questions itself about WHY it does anything at all, it then doesn't answer and it just feels all weirdly not-knowing and silent and still and dead like?


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Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 5:49 pm
Man can become aware of having in addition to an animal necessity a conscious necessity which enables him to be more than the being potential for a cat.

I don't see it like that. I see awareness is every thing, and that no things are aware, because only awareness is aware. And the only reason a human feels as though it has more conscious potential than a cat is because humans evolved to use words to communicate with other humans. Those words are just sound like the sound of meow or woof or chirp.

The human makes a sound too, but their sound is heard as words with meaning, and all that's done is it has divided reality into separate things and that some of those things are the humans themselves. And so they have used this language to inform themselves that they actually have a meaning or special purpose and potential to be greater than lets say a cat is. But all they've done is identify with their made up language and made a story of 'me' out of it...and then they have convinced themself that this 'me' here is more special than the awareness that is a cat...they've taken their words to mean literal things in and of themselves to be real, when they are nothing more than silence sounding and just appearances within silent awareness ..they don't see that these words they have used to communicate with themselves have no more substance or reality to them any more than do characters in a nightly dream have.

This language must have been what spawned the aware organism to turn their words into memory which expresses itself as thoughts.
But thoughts are empty of substance, they are invisible and are a total mystery to the awareness that is aware of them. And yet they are able to build lots of things including worlds using these mysterious invisible ideas. It's quite amazing how the invisible can unfurl into a magical visible world of many things just by the use of known concepts.


These known concepts also included the concept of Human that were also capable of building amazing structures and technological gadgets and forms of transport so that they were able to spread widely across the whole of the planet. All because they evolved to have thumbs and strong hands and could walk upright. But that doesn't make them more important or special than of any other creature. In fact their amazingness has proved to be nothing more than a disaster for the planet, you could even say that human activity have shown awareness to be very destructive, selfish, toxic and detrimental to the planet ...but that's another very very long story....



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Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 5:49 pm How can Man serve this great living machine? It requires first the willingness to “know thyself and the need, the will, and the consciousness necessary to experience it for what it is. Without this beginning the rest is as Dostoyevsky described: pouring from the empty into the void.

The begining of knowing thyself via conceptual knowledge can be known to be two things...one: the awareness of itself can be known to be selfish, as having a separate self...and two: the awareness of self can be known to be selfless, as knowing there is no separate self here to know itself.

Either which way this plays out makes no difference to the awareness in which the realisations appear...for in reality awareness has no begining nor end...and is just as Dostoyevsky described: Awareness is a pouring from the empty into the void. Absolutely to the point.

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Before gettiing into your questions I must ask if you are open to the concept of the Tripartite Soul Theory or 3 in 1. We can see it in the Christian trinity or the three
gunas in Hinduism for example.

Do you and I exist as inner unity.as one, or as a trinity? If we exist as a trinity it is natural for the higher conscious parts to experience our lower parts. You seem to believe that only awareness is real and I am suggesting that the whole of the tripartite soul or essence is real and we exist not as a unity but as a plurality

This is an important distinction. If I am right conscious human change becomes possible by the higher consciously witnessing the lower. If you are right the goal of human life is to rise above responding to the lower and recognize it as unreal. Which is closer to your beliefs

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 11:49 pm

Do you and I exist as inner unity.as one, or as a trinity? If we exist as a trinity it is natural for the higher conscious parts to experience our lower parts. You seem to believe that only awareness is real and I am suggesting that the whole of the tripartite soul or essence is real and we exist not as a unity but as a plurality

This is an important distinction. If I am right conscious human change becomes possible by the higher consciously witnessing the lower. If you are right the goal of human life is to rise above responding to the lower and recognize it as unreal. Which is closer to your beliefs

Nick, I get what you are trying to show me...but we all see this differently and therefore express this difference in multiple different ways conceptually speaking.

For me it's all very simple, and once grasped there is nothing more to understand...and so for me, it can be expressed as like Playdough.

There is here only Playdough appearing to itself as many different molded characters as it can possibly think of, which are all each unique expressive forms of the same Playdough.

A ball shaped piece of Playdough and a sausage shaped piece of Playdough may seem to be two different objects, but both are still the same basic Playdough and have their source in that, from which they temporally took on a unique form of their own, albeit illusory since it's all the one Playdough playing each shape..

If you are asking me to see this your way Nick, all I can say to you with respect is I can't do that, I can only see from my own lens of perception according to my own unique character's script.. Because no two characters are identical in nature, as nature never repeats exactly.

No matter, how the difference appears or not, it's all the same one love action dreaming difference where there is none.

You talk of a trinity..I totally get all that, I've researched it all. Nothing is new to me about awakening. The way I would describe the trinity would be totally different to the way you describe it no doubt...mine goes something along the lines of....When Awareness (Father) knows sensation (Mother) Consciousness is born / mind (Son) ..and so these 3 apparent aspects of ''Beingness'' or what ever you want to call it, some call God... are all the same ONENESS appearing as the many, hence duality. I've never denied duality if you read back through my many posts.

Because Duality is all there is HERE... because there is no such thing as non-duality, because non-duality is not a thing. Non-duality is that in which all things appear and are known conceptually in the instant they arise one with the knowing...which is Conscious Awareness, the only knowing there is.



So the way the awareness here..as and through DAM character, she sees that all concepts are appearances only. If evil thoughts arise, that's awareness knowing evil thoughts.
If good thoughts arise, that's awareness knowing good thoughts.

Ultimately, thoughts are free to be what ever thought deems to be real, conceptually speaking...because awareness cannot be created or destroyed, it's always been here just silently witnessing every evil and good thought, and every action and reactive action all of which just come and go in it without ever leaving a stain on it.

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DAM

you talk of a trinity..I totally get all that, I've researched it all. Nothing is new to me about awakening. The way I would describe the trinity would be totally different to the way you describe it no doubt...mine goes something along the lines of....When Awareness (Father) knows sensation (Mother) Consciousness is born / mind (Son) ..and so these 3 apparent aspects of ''Beingness'' or what ever you want to call it, some call God... are all the same ONENESS appearing as the many, hence duality. I've never denied duality if you read back through my many posts.

Because Duality is all there is HERE... because there is no such thing as non-duality, because non-duality is not a thing. Non-duality is that in which all things appear and are known conceptually in the instant they arise one with the knowing...which is Conscious Awareness, the only knowing there is. ou talk of a trinity..I totally get all that, I've researched it all. Nothing is new to me about awakening. The way I would describe the trinity would be totally different to the way you describe it no doubt...mine goes something along the lines of....When Awareness (Father) knows sensation (Mother) Consciousness is born / mind (Son) ..and so these 3 apparent aspects of ''Beingness'' or what ever you want to call it, some call God... are all the same ONENESS appearing as the many, hence duality. I've never denied duality if you read back through my many posts.

Because Duality is all there is HERE... because there is no such thing as non-duality, because non-duality is not a thing. Non-duality is that in which all things appear and are known conceptually in the instant they arise one with the knowing...which is Conscious Awareness, the only knowing there is.

I am not trying to teach but just seeing differences. So far it just seems that you like most don’t recognize the third force essential for the relativity and scale of creation. We know of yin and yang or the denying and affirming forces in opposition. This is duality. But there is a third force we are blind to. It is the force of reconciliation and why we live in a triune rather than dualistic universe.

It is better not to discuss these ideas since they provoke negativity. Plato’s cave is bad enough and we know the trouble that caused. Third force will really inspire negativity so it is best just to disagree. If you can build on your thesis in a way that enables a person to experience the complimentary laws of science and being, more power to you. I don’t see how it is possible through duality yet it is logical and spiritually satisfying when the three forces of creation and how they interact are experienced and understood

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun May 10, 2020 6:54 pm DAM

you talk of a trinity..I totally get all that, I've researched it all. Nothing is new to me about awakening. The way I would describe the trinity would be totally different to the way you describe it no doubt...mine goes something along the lines of....When Awareness (Father) knows sensation (Mother) Consciousness is born / mind (Son) ..and so these 3 apparent aspects of ''Beingness'' or what ever you want to call it, some call God... are all the same ONENESS appearing as the many, hence duality. I've never denied duality if you read back through my many posts.

Because Duality is all there is HERE... because there is no such thing as non-duality, because non-duality is not a thing. Non-duality is that in which all things appear and are known conceptually in the instant they arise one with the knowing...which is Conscious Awareness, the only knowing there is. ou talk of a trinity..I totally get all that, I've researched it all. Nothing is new to me about awakening. The way I would describe the trinity would be totally different to the way you describe it no doubt...mine goes something along the lines of....When Awareness (Father) knows sensation (Mother) Consciousness is born / mind (Son) ..and so these 3 apparent aspects of ''Beingness'' or what ever you want to call it, some call God... are all the same ONENESS appearing as the many, hence duality. I've never denied duality if you read back through my many posts.

Because Duality is all there is HERE... because there is no such thing as non-duality, because non-duality is not a thing. Non-duality is that in which all things appear and are known conceptually in the instant they arise one with the knowing...which is Conscious Awareness, the only knowing there is.

I am not trying to teach but just seeing differences. So far it just seems that you like most don’t recognize the third force essential for the relativity and scale of creation. We know of yin and yang or the denying and affirming forces in opposition. This is duality. But there is a third force we are blind to. It is the force of reconciliation and why we live in a triune rather than dualistic universe.

It is better not to discuss these ideas since they provoke negativity. Plato’s cave is bad enough and we know the trouble that caused. Third force will really inspire negativity so it is best just to disagree. If you can build on your thesis in a way that enables a person to experience the complimentary laws of science and being, more power to you. I don’t see how it is possible through duality yet it is logical and spiritually satisfying when the three forces of creation and how they interact are experienced and understood

Look, I get what you are saying...but at the end of the day, what ever is spoken about reality is not what reality is...your story our story ..it’s all HIS story...here today gone tomorrow ...one simply cannot dam up the flow, bottle it, and then sell it ..it’s not for sale.

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