Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:37 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:30 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:05 am It's actually an incredibly obvious statement. ALL live people are doing better than if they were murder victims. You don't even have to be a Theist to know that's true.

That's your view,

No, it's a fact. Live people are better off than dead ones. As the saying goes, "Better a live dog than a dead lion," and "Where there's life, there's hope."

Moreover, unless you suppose that babies are all unhappy people who are secretly long for suicide or euthanasia, then it's hard to see the relevance of your objection.

In any case, the important point is simply this: women are often, in their own ways, as violent as the worst of men. They find different methods, but are not one whit less spiteful, mean, savage, unkind and even murderous, when they have cause to be.

Thus, the supposition of the OP is just wrong. And I think you'd agree with that conclusion, at least.

There things worse then death!

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:12 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:26 am Of the thousands of soldiers I served with in war, only one enjoyed killing people; he was diagnosed as a clinical psychopath and removed from the war zone. Normal people who become soldiers—and police as well I’d guess—do not like to kill others.

You knew that many enough to know. Wow. Quite observant of you.

What mood were you all in after a briefing before you were sent to kill? Depressed or more of an oorah and eagerness to get the job done?

Regards
DL

No briefings.

The mood was fear and anxiety, or denial.

To a man (except for the crazy guy) we would always prefer to avoid the enemy over killing them.

Let me be clear. That men like to kill men in war is the most ignorant comment I’ve heard in over 70 years.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:18 pm There things worse then death!

For a healthy baby? I really don't think there are.

Just put her up for adoption, and her chances become really, really good. Kill her, and her chances are zero. So what WOULD be a good reason for murdering a healthy baby?

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:55 pm

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:12 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:26 am Of the thousands of soldiers I served with in war, only one enjoyed killing people; he was diagnosed as a clinical psychopath and removed from the war zone. Normal people who become soldiers—and police as well I’d guess—do not like to kill others.

You knew that many enough to know. Wow. Quite observant of you.

What mood were you all in after a briefing before you were sent to kill? Depressed or more of an oorah and eagerness to get the job done?

Regards
DL

No briefings.

The mood was fear and anxiety, or denial.

To a man (except for the crazy guy) we would always prefer to avoid the enemy over killing them.

Let me be clear. That men like to kill men in war is the most ignorant comment I’ve heard in over 70 years.

If we are so incensed by killing and war, why is our last 5,000 years history full of them?

If those two issues are not what we see as the epitome of enjoyable drama, what is?

If you do not see that killing instinct in our children, and that fathers do not love to see it, stay away from a hockey rink when kids are on the ice.

You will likely get into a fight with a parent urging their child do do whatever is required to stop that shot.

I am willing to learn my friend, so have a go at that first question.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:43 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:55 pm

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:12 pm

You knew that many enough to know. Wow. Quite observant of you.

What mood were you all in after a briefing before you were sent to kill? Depressed or more of an oorah and eagerness to get the job done?

Regards
DL

No briefings.

The mood was fear and anxiety, or denial.

To a man (except for the crazy guy) we would always prefer to avoid the enemy over killing them.

Let me be clear. That men like to kill men in war is the most ignorant comment I’ve heard in over 70 years.

If we are so incensed by killing and war, why is our last 5,000 years history full of them?

If those two issues are not what we see as the epitome of enjoyable drama, what is?

If you do not see that killing instinct in our children, and that fathers do not love to see it, stay away from a hockey rink when kids are on the ice.

You will likely get into a fight with a parent urging their child do do whatever is required to stop that shot.

I am willing to learn my friend, so have a go at that first question.

Regards
DL

It is because the best interests of one political entity come into conflict with another political entity AND the leaders involved fail to reach a non-violent compromise AND the populus of each is willing to follow the orders of their leaders.

I can understand blood-thirst at a competitive sports event, but facial expressions of those involved reveal anger and maybe self righteousness or even hate, but not amusement, mirth or joy.

I don’t know if leaders are having fun, but I hope not.

Blood-thirst may be a remnant of primitive survival.

Observing the drama, in the safety of a Lazy Boy, is not the same experience as killing a human. Those who like the drama have nary a clue about the actual experience.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:38 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:18 pm There are things worse then death!

For a healthy baby? I really don't think there are.

I was referring to what you stated as a general principle: "No, it's a fact. Live people are better off than dead ones." I am not referring to healthy Babies, which cannot really be known until they are born. I dear friend of ours recently experienced a still birth.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:03 am I am not referring to healthy Babies, which cannot really be known until they are born. I dear friend of ours recently experienced a still birth.

Well, the vast majority of babies expected to be healthy are healthy. And we should be referring to babies, because they're the primary people women "like to kill," (to quote the terms of the OP).

So again, what's the rationale for killing healthy baby, with so many adoptive parents desperate and waiting?

And the answer? Quite obviously, there is NO rational justification for that. All there is, is pure homicidal selfishness.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:53 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:03 am I am not referring to healthy Babies, which cannot really be known until they are born. I dear friend of ours recently experienced a still birth.

Well, the vast majority of babies expected to be healthy are healthy. And we should be referring to babies, because they're the primary people women "like to kill," (to quote the terms of the OP).

So again, what's the rationale for killing healthy baby, with so many adoptive parents desperate and waiting?

And the answer? Quite obviously, there is NO rational justification for that. All there is, is pure homicidal selfishness.

I suppose for the same reason that masturbating is less traumatic than giving away a baby and having to worry about it for the rest of your life. As a man you couldn't possibly understand pregnancy and birth so you might as well keep your big fat alcoholic male kristian snout out of women's business.

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:16 pm

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:43 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:55 pm

No briefings.

The mood was fear and anxiety, or denial.

To a man (except for the crazy guy) we would always prefer to avoid the enemy over killing them.

Let me be clear. That men like to kill men in war is the most ignorant comment I’ve heard in over 70 years.

If we are so incensed by killing and war, why is our last 5,000 years history full of them?

If those two issues are not what we see as the epitome of enjoyable drama, what is?

If you do not see that killing instinct in our children, and that fathers do not love to see it, stay away from a hockey rink when kids are on the ice.

You will likely get into a fight with a parent urging their child do do whatever is required to stop that shot.

I am willing to learn my friend, so have a go at that first question.

Regards
DL

It is because the best interests of one political entity come into conflict with another political entity AND the leaders involved fail to reach a non-violent compromise AND the populus of each is willing to follow the orders of their leaders.

I can understand blood-thirst at a competitive sports event, but facial expressions of those involved reveal anger and maybe self righteousness or even hate, but not amusement, mirth or joy.

I don’t know if leaders are having fun, but I hope not.

Blood-thirst may be a remnant of primitive survival.

Observing the drama, in the safety of a Lazy Boy, is not the same experience as killing a human. Those who like the drama have nary a clue about the actual experience.

Well put.

As to your last, studies are showing that what we watch has an actual effect on our minds and bodies.

They mimic to some extent the physiological reactions of the game's avatar's or actor's reactions. Our blood pressure goes up etc.

Regards
DL

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:39 am ...women's business.

It's not "women's business", because a) a man is involved in every case, b) a child is the primary person harmed in the action.

It's no more "woman's business" than it would be if a woman strangled somebody with a rope or hired an assassin to kills someone.

In fact, the latter is exactly what it is.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:24 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:16 pm

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:43 pm

If we are so incensed by killing and war, why is our last 5,000 years history full of them?

If those two issues are not what we see as the epitome of enjoyable drama, what is?

If you do not see that killing instinct in our children, and that fathers do not love to see it, stay away from a hockey rink when kids are on the ice.

You will likely get into a fight with a parent urging their child do do whatever is required to stop that shot.

I am willing to learn my friend, so have a go at that first question.

Regards
DL

It is because the best interests of one political entity come into conflict with another political entity AND the leaders involved fail to reach a non-violent compromise AND the populus of each is willing to follow the orders of their leaders.

I can understand blood-thirst at a competitive sports event, but facial expressions of those involved reveal anger and maybe self righteousness or even hate, but not amusement, mirth or joy.

I don’t know if leaders are having fun, but I hope not.

Blood-thirst may be a remnant of primitive survival.

Observing the drama, in the safety of a Lazy Boy, is not the same experience as killing a human. Those who like the drama have nary a clue about the actual experience.

Well put.

As to your last, studies are showing that what we watch has an actual effect on our minds and bodies.

They mimic to some extent the physiological reactions of the game's avatar's or actor's reactions. Our blood pressure goes up etc.

Regards
DL

Mimicry, yes, but I’d say there’s quite a difference in degree. The heart pounds more, speaking from experience, when a man is in danger of being killed by another man, who, btw, likely has the same fear and no amusement whatsoever.

In a fire-fight, there have been some who shit or piss on themselves or who pass out as a result of fear, not enjoyment. Combat is unimaginable to those who have never been there/done that.

I forgot to mention puking.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:38 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:18 pm There are things worse then death!

For a healthy baby? I really don't think there are.

Baby Died With 96 Bones Broken, Parents Face Criminal Charges

Mother taken to jail after infant dies with broken bones, extensive burns

Baby Brianna's Story: 5 Month Old Baby Raped, Beaten, Murdered.... By her Parent's & Uncle

But I wasn't talking about babies, only you are. You have this fixation on abortion but you never make the point of what you propose should be done about it? You just keep repeating how awful abortion is. Lots of things are awful and much worse than abortion. I would never be party to an abortion, but what other people do is not up to me.

Of course it would be wonderful if people who had a child they did not want found some nice family to adopt it. What do you want to do if they refuse to do that and abort their child?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:38 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:18 pm There are things worse then death!

For a healthy baby? I really don't think there are.

Baby Died With 96 Bones Broken, Parents Face Criminal Charges

Mother taken to jail after infant dies with broken bones, extensive burns

Baby Brianna's Story: 5 Month Old Baby Raped, Beaten, Murdered.... By her Parent's & Uncle

I'm not seeing your argument here, RC.

It can't be, "children are sometimes abused," so they should be killed. That would be absurd. So it's not that.

What is it, then? It can't be "children who are put up for adoption are worse off than dead," because you only cite cases of mothers abusing their own children. You don't even suggest that the 35 sets of parents waiting to adopt every healthy infant available are guilty of any of these crimes.

It can't be "there are things worse than dying," because there's an infinite list of such things...having your hand in a meat grinder, getting lung cancer, eating a live toad without any ketchup, having to vote for Bernie Sanders...Yet we do not choose to die out of fear that maybe, just maybe one of them will happen to us.

So what is it?

I honestly can't see what point you think you're making.

You have this fixation on abortion...

I'm just refuting the OP's claim, that "men like to kill," with the implication, "women don't." That implication has to be there, because if it were not, why would the OP single out "men"? And the very widespread, and even socially condoned practice of infanticide by women is about as decisive a refutation to that OP claim as you can get.

Of course it would be wonderful if people who had a child they did not want found some nice family to adopt it.

They can!

So, then, why would anyone condone killing the child instead? What are you saving her from, then? From being wanted? From having love? From getting a chance to grow up and become all she can be? What's the benefit to the murdered child?

The only "benefit" is to the selfish aborter, who does not want any of her children to be happy without her. And apparently, she'd rather have them dead.

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:41 pm

Mimicry, yes, but I’d say there’s quite a difference in degree. The heart pounds more, speaking from experience, when a man is in danger of being killed by another man, who, btw, likely has the same fear and no amusement whatsoever.

In a fire-fight, there have been some who shit or piss on themselves or who pass out as a result of fear, not enjoyment. Combat is unimaginable to those who have never been there/done that.

Generally, other than what the media given ideas, true.

We are talking degrees of empathy. On the battle fields, some shit while some become the heroes by killing.

The spoils of glory go to the fittest and showing that fitness through killing is what gets the girls, so to speak.

The right to mate is at the root of our love of killing and war. It is our first instinct after survival.

Regards
DL