Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:28 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:39 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:31 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:18 pm You are missing my point. I am not talking about choosing evil but feeling evil. One needs to have an evil nature to feel evil, pride for example.
I don't think so.

In the Biblical account, once makes the bad choice, one's nature changes as a result -- from "free" to "capable of evil." That's what's implied by that phrase, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Prior to that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the possibility of evil at all -- only of the good. But afterward, their natures became such that they did.

Was that the case with Satan? The simple and true answer is this: nobody knows. We're not told.
You might like to read this.

EXACTLY what I have been SAYING.

And as I have been saying, this fits in perfectly with religious and scientific writings to form a picture perfect view of the actual Truth of things or ALL-THERE-IS.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:32 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:59 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:36 pm I mean God created our nature which is partly evil. Is the act of creation of such nature good or evil?
Well, Biblically, mankind was not created "partly evil." Genesis makes that abundantly clear. It says, "And God saw that it was good," not "God saw it was good and evil."
My argument is based on the sin of pride that Satan committed. Satan must have an evil nature in order to feel pride.

Okay, makes perfect sense.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:59 am But it seems human beings were also created as genuine individuals and persons, with moral freedom. And this means that they had the power to choose good, or to reject good. The rejection of the good is what is known as "evil."

So "evil" is not itself a creation: it's the negation, the shadow, the absence of good, the rejection of good, the departure from good, the twisting away from good. It isn't a thing-in-itself, but the negative of a thing-in-itself. It's not-life, not-light, not-truth, not-health, and not-good. But it's not a thing with its own independent existence: it's derivative of the absence or rejection of something truly good.
I disagree that evil is absence of good but that is off-topic.

How can it be off-topic.

Or, maybe it is only "off-topic", to you, because it does not fit in with your own already held BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS of things here?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:59 am
For the second question, you need to understand the first statement until "so". After "so" there is a question related to the statement before "so".
Well, you wrote: " It is for sure that an agent with free will eventually commit evil if s/he has an evil nature so was the act of creating a free agent with evil nature is good/evil?"

That's not grammatically clear. But it also seems to assume "evil nature" was "created," rather than evil being a product of rejection of the Good by agents with free will.

This is the opposite of what Genesis says was the case, so the question (if I can understand it at all) would be premised on an error.
Satan fell pride. Where did the pride come from?

I thought you had already arrived at the conclusion that God created EVERY thing?

If this correct?

If no, then what was the conclusion that you had arrived at earlier on?

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:47 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:14 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:03 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:18 pm
For example, Big Bang (creation was not in seven days),
That relatively "sized" bang, which happened a relatively few years ago has NOTHING really to do with Creation at all.

Creation was not in, with, or at the so called "big bang" at all.

That "bang" happened within Creation.
What?

What what?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:14 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:03 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:18 pm evolution (our ancestors are not Adam and Eve),
Was there ever a point in evolution where a purely not knowing the difference between right and wrong animal evolved into a more thinking and knowing animal?

Are you aware that the story of adam and eve is just a story about evolution, which explains when an animal evolved into and became the what is now known as the 'human animal'?

Or, have you got some other concept of what that story is about?

Why do you have 'your story', where did 'your' story come from? Remember we could be reading the exact same words?

To me, the story of adam and eve is a story about and explanation of how evolution, itself, works.
You are no serious. The story of Adam and Eve is about creation rather than evolution.

Yes I am. I am VERY, VERY SERIOUS.

The story is about evolution (as much as it is about creation).

eve FROM adam. adam FROM earth.

Things coming FROM one other thing and changing into some thing else. Things evolving. Therefore, evolution.

See 'you', human beings, have been disputing over whether it is creation OR evolution, for quite a while now, when the actual Truth IS it has ALWAYS NEVER been a 'one OR the other' discussion, as it is a 'one AND the other' discussion.

Creation AND evolution play and EQUAL part.

'you', human beings, have been 'MISSING THE MARK' for thousands of years now.

Just to be CLEAR, thee ANSWER to EVERY other one of your disputed 'one OR the other' discussions is also found in LOOKING AT them as 'one AND the other'. For example, 'nature AND nurture', 'free will AND determinism', and ALL of the other ones.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:14 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:03 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:18 pm The story of the flood (you cannot possibly have room for all pair of each species in a boat), etc.
This story is just about rescuing ALL things before they are flooded/suffocated/killed/destroyed to the point of extinction.

To save and help any species of any thing to keep existing, BEFORE they brought to the point of extinction, then at least two are needed, that is; the male and the female of any species.

Maybe you are seeing these things as not just a story about some thing possible, and that is the reason you can not fit in them with the 'truth'?

Or, maybe what you see as 'truth' is really NOT truth at all, and that is some thing which is NOT possible.

But we will NEVER know until you OPEN up fully and explain what the 'truth' IS, and why you can NOT fit these stories in with.

Ah I know, maybe you view these stories as literally happening in truth.

By the way, in case you still have NOT got it; I LOOK AT and SEE things very, very different from 'you' do.

The stories I see, look at, and read in ALL religious (and scientific) texts ALL fit in perfectly with the actual Truth of things.
There are 8.7 million species! They need food, shelter,...

What do you think the ship, or ark, called EARTH is providing ALL of them?

While you are at it, WHO do you think are the ones flooding/polluting/suffocating that existence, and so now a new boat, ship, ark, home, et cetera is being looked for as to escape the flood/extinction that is coming?

You, obviously, can only pollute one place so much before you have to pack every one up and move or ship on out.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:53 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:18 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 pm My argument is based on the sin of pride that Satan committed. Satan must have an evil nature in order to feel pride.
The famous poet, John Milton, author of the great epic poem,Paradise Lost, described free will this way:

"I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th' Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood and them who faild;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell."

That line is an interesting one. It means that one doesn't have to have an intrinsically evil nature in order to choose evil; one only has to have a radically free nature, meaning one unconstrained, and not forcibly kept from making that choice.

Milton's suggestion, I think is a good one: for a person to be "free," it entails that (at least for some time) he/she has the option (though not any compulsion) to choose one thing or the other. But if the "one thing" in view is harmonious existence with an intrinsically good God, the source and prototype of all "goodness," then what is the "other thing" one could choose that's contrary to that? That must be "evil."

But notice also that first line: "I made him just and right." Part of making mankind all they could be means including in them this freedom of the will. So the Creator is not implicated in the origin of evil...only of freedom, which we consider a great good for us all.

I am just curious "immanuel can" do you think you 'sin' less than other human beings?

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:40 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:29 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:27 pm
Me? Maybe. But I am trying my best to not believe in on something which is obviously false.
Do you know of any one that is not 'trying' their best to believe in/on some thing which is obviously false?
Yes, I know.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am In fact do you know of ANY one believes in/on any thing, which is obviously false, to them?
Yes, I know.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am This is the biggest issue and trouble human beings have with BELIEFS. They obviously would NOT believe some thing, which is obviously false, to them, AND, they would ONLY believe some thing, which is obviously true, to them. But what is obviously FALSE to one, is NOT to "another", and vice-versa, what is obviously TRUE to one, is NOT to "another". But which ONE is Right?
What I think is right.

Now this is a great honest reply, while exposing a great a point. That is, it holds a fair amount of more truth on further observation. What you said, is said in jest, as though it is not really meant. However, the Truth IS, 'you', human beings, ALWAYS think 'what is right' is the one that you choose and THINK 'is right'.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:29 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:27 pm By the way, can you please give an example of what you think that I believe which is obviously wrong?
Sure, provide me with a list of the things that you believe, then I will provide you with examples of the ones, which are obviously wrong, to me.

By the way, thank you for wanting to obtain some clarity on what it is that I am saying.
1) We are minds, 2) we interact through physical,... I think these two are obvious enough.

I DID ask for you to provide what you BELIEVE and NOT what you THINK.

So,

1) Do you BELIEVE 'we' are minds?

2) Do you BELIEVE 'we' interact through physical?

(By the way I do NOT see these as being obviously wrong, in a sense. BUT I also KNOW how to word them in a way so that they are actually True, Right, and/or Correct, so that they fit in perfectly with EVERY other thing).

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:29 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:27 pm
Through my personal experiences.
Through your experiences is God very powerful also?

Or, through ALL of your experiences, is it just satan who is very powerful?
They are both powerful.

To say and admit that BOTH God and satan are powerful is to also admit that BOTH exist, correct?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:29 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:27 pm
The master of all Devils.
Could you pinpoint it down just a little bit more, so that 'we', who have NOT lived your life experiences, are able to grasp some kind of understanding at least?

What about who or what are ALL the 'devils'?
Devils are spiritual beings who do evil.

Okay great.

Now, who besides human beings do evil?

None that I can think of.

'Human beings', are partly made up of 'spiritual beings'. To me, the 'human' in 'human being' is just the physical part - the 'human' body. And, the 'being' part in 'human being' is just the spiritual part - the 'being' or the non visible thoughts and feelings within the 'physical body'.

Now, EVERY adult human being has good/right and bad/wrong thoughts. It can be argued, very easily and simply, that when the human body part is doing what is wrong or bad, then that body is doing evil. That 'wrong/bad' doing, by the human physical part, is being controlled, by the 'wrong/bad' thinking spiritual (or being) part. So, when some (physical) 'body' is doing some thing bad or wrong, then it is the 'd/evil' (spiritual) 'being', which is orchestrating/controlling/driving that.

So, although the physical body part is the thing that is seen as doing 'evil', the actual thing doing (controlling) the 'evil' is the 'spiritual being', from within the body.

If ANY 'body' is seen to be doing Good, then that is coming from the Good, or the God 'spiritual being' part, of the 'human being'. And conversely, if ANY 'body' is seen to be doing Wrong, then that is coming from the Wrong, or the D/evil 'spiritual being' part, of the 'human being'.

It is ALL very simple and easy really.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:29 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:27 pm
For example?
To understand the answer you would first have to KNOW what all the words in the answer actually mean and how they are defined, and from the examples, meanings, and/or definitions that you have provided so far, then you will probably not yet be able to understand the answer fully. But I will provide my view anyway:

To me, 'satan', is just the wrong thinking, within each human being. If as you say, 'satan' is the "master of the devils", then 'satan' would be BELIEFS, themselves. While 'devils' would just be the wrong thinking. Beliefs, after all, do have control over the thinking, which is usually wrong anyway.

So, the purpose of God, in the spiritual sense, (which is just the KNOWING of right and wrong, in this context) in allowing satan to exist is so eventually human beings will learn from their own mistakes.

ALL human beings learn BEST from, and through, their own personal experiences, and NOT from being told. God is telling ALL 'you', human beings, what is right and wrong ALL the time anyway, from within. But, seriously, how many people really listen to their OWN inner KNOWING of what is ACTUALLY right and wrong and do that, instead of listening to their OWN individual instantly gratifying thinking? This is part of the story of adam and eve. The snake is just a forked tongue, slithering, low-(to the ground)life animal. A slithering (sneaky), forked tongue (split the truth) internal speaking one, telling 'you', human beings (eve first) to do what is KNOWN to be WRONG.

How God, in the physical sense, (the Universe Itself) actually allowed satan to exist is just how creation through evolution produces or Creates ALL things. Eventually an intelligent enough species would come to exist. That species was eventually named human beings who have, within them, a thinking, which is made up of good AND bad thoughts, and a KNOWING, which is ONLY of Good, True, Right, and Correct knowledge.

The bad, wrong, or 'evil' thinking, which has come to exist within ALL adult human beings is what could be called the devils. With many devils, or the many wrong thinking/thoughts within one adult human being or many devils being ALL adult human beings ALL with their own wrong thinking/thoughts.

These devils/wrong thinking are controlled by the master 'satan', which is just the BELIEFS within the BELIEF-system. (and like most "systems", they seem to have control over human beings instead of the other way around. Have you ever phoned a government department to complain about some thing to only be told that that is how the "system" works? I think this human being forget that it is 'you', human beings, who CREATED the "system", and NOT the other way around). But I digress. Now, eve ate what she did because within her was a BELIEF that it was okay to do so, and in doing so she would gain the knowledge of good and evil/wrong. She ALREADY KNEW it was wrong. The inner KNOWING of right and wrong is God, in the spiritual sense, but she listened to the wrong thinking/thoughts instead. And as can be witnessed and evidenced since "then", human beings have not really changed that much at all. adam, being a typical, tried to' blame some thing else, for what was inertly KNOWN to be wrong all along. Just like people blame the "system" for some thing "else", which obviously human beings, themselves, do, adam blamed eve and eve blamed some thing other than herself. She blamed the BELIEF-"system" within.

Now, back to the question that was asked;
What was God's purpose in allowing Satan to exist?

Which instead of you just saying, "I do not know", you answered:
Christian doesn't have a rational answer for this.

To which I replied:
Maybe not, but there IS a very rational answer.

God's purpose in allowing satan to exist IS because when 'you', human beings' accept AND take FULL responsibility for your OWN wrong doings, THEN you will understand FULLY that the purpose 'you' are absolutely FREE to choose to do whatever you want is so that you could and would LEARN what is Truly Right and Wrong from your OWN wrong doings, so THEN the Good in 'you' ALL will wipe out the wrong/evil thinking with you ALL once and for ALL forever more, so that then the following generations of human beings can and will living in peace and harmony forever more.

When 'you', human beings, when this is written, STOP thinking that LIfe revolves around 'you', and START thinking about YOUR children, who are REALLY what IS Truly IMPORTANT, then you can START Creating the Life that you Truly WANT for yourselves, you and YOUR children.
It appears to me that you do not have enough spiritual experience as you speak of Satan as wrong thinking. Satan is a being like me and you but much more powerful.

Do you think or believe that you have ENOUGH 'spiritual experience' to make the judgement call that you are here?

If you think or believe that you have enough 'spiritual experience', then WHY do you not just explain 'what is Truly right and Truly wrong in Life'?

Also, could you have misinterpreted or misunderstood any thing that I have said and written?

I thought I had ALREADY explained, but I obviously have not done it enough and/or not in a simply enough way to be understood yet.

I am NOT sure how you mistook 'satan' as being 'wrong thinking', especially considering I clearly wrote that the 'devil' or 'wrong' thinking is controlled by the master 'satan'. 'satan' just being BELIEFS, or the BELIEF-system.

See, the thinking that goes on within the human body is controlled by BELIEFS (and to a lesser extend ASSUMPTIONS). Just exactly like I have been writing down and explaining for quiet a while now throughout this forum.

The wrong thinking within adult human bodies is the d/evil 'spiritual being', this thinking/being is controlled by their master 'satan' - the BELIEF-system.
Whereas,
The Good thinking within all human bodies is the good 'spiritual being', this thinking/being is 'tried to be' controlled by 'satan' - the BELIEF-system.

But this "BELIEF-system" can be overcome (or overridden) by NEVER believing nor assuming any thing.

ALL thinking controls how the human body behaves, or misbehaves.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:29 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:54 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:27 pm
Satan is male according to my personal experience.
Okay, that is fair enough.

And what would make more sense is IF you had had PERFECT past experiences, then you would have PERFECT knowledge of RIGHT and WRONG. Unfortunately you have had neither, so instead of 'trying to' LOOK AT and SEE 'Life' through YOU perspective ONLY, what would be so wrong in just LOOKING AT things, from "another" perspective, and SEEING what can be found and discovered there?
I am open to other points of view.

I have heard this countless times before, but unfortunately the BELIEF-system is the one that is really controlling you.

Get rid of the BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS completely, only then is when you are REALLY OPEN to other points of view.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:53 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:25 am
How old are you? Honest question. I have to ask, since you raised it.
I raised 'it' knowing you would ASSUME some thing, which you obviously have, and then I can point out that it is better to NEVER assume any thing. Although I thank you for asking a clarifying question your question is based on an ASSUMPTION, so I will leave it alone as I have also raised, 'you', human beings, as well.

I make no assumption. You could be 80, or you could be 15. I'm simply asking why you used the expression "You, adults." You didn't say, "We adults," so you must not include yourself...unless you misspoke, which you are free to say.

So what is the answer to that unassuming question?

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:53 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:23 pm
I didn't mean that I believe that the Bible is the word of God. I meant that people believe that the Bible is the word of God.
But what do you believe?

It does NOT matter what "other" people believe.

Most of those beliefs will be just flat out obviously WRONG anyway.
I think that we are evolving interacting minds.

Do you KNOW the difference between the two questions;
1. What do you 'believe'? And,
2. What do you think?

If you do, then when I ask you, What do you 'believe', then your reply would NOT start with, "I think ...".

Now either you 'believe' some thing, or you do not.

If it is the latter, then just say so. But if it is the former, then just say what it is that you 'believe'.

When, and if, you do that, then we can move onto what this 'minds' thing is exactly, which you speak about?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:23 pm
I have no idea. I am not a believer. Whether the Bible is corrupted or not is the subject of another thread.
But ANY discussion relating to the bible would be better if whether the bible is corrupted or not was discussed also.

Until that is discussed, then talking about what is in the bible would be a complete waste of time.
This thread is about the origin of evil given the fact that the story within the Bible is literal and correct.

If we are to say, accept, and agree that God creates EVERY thing, and, if we are to say, accept, and agree that 'evil' exists, then OBVIOUSLY God creates 'evil'. End of story? Or, do you not say, not accept, and/or not agree that God creates EVERY thing? And/or, do you not say, not accept, and/or not agree that 'evil' exists? So, what is it?

Also, when you say that the FACT IS the stories within the bible ARE literal and correct, then what do you actually mean? What are you basing this supposed and alleged fact on exactly?

And, WHO's interpretation of the literal interpretation are we ALL going to accept and agree with as being CORRECT?

To say, "The fact that the story within the bible is literal and correct" is a huge monumental CLAIM.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:23 pm
Sage?

So God lied to us in order to make sure that we become intelligent by asking questions?
No, God used words that only the Truly intelligent would SEE and recognize. When that time comes about is of NO importance at all.

When human beings got past their dishonest stage, started becoming more Honest and thus more OPEN also, then would start becoming intelligent enough to SEE and recognize what was actually there in front of them ALL THE TIME anyway.
Why only truly intelligent people?

Because ONLY the Truly intelligent ones are able to discover and learn new and more things.

'Intelligence' just means being OPEN, to be able to discover and learn new and more things.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:23 pm
Maybe, that is God who does things to me too. Maybe, that is Satan who does things to you too. We will never know.
But it is ALL ALREADY KNOWN.
It is not.

It is such an ignorant and arrogant response to make the claim that some thing is NOT YET KNOWN.

If it is NOT ALREADY KNOWN, then tell me what basis you have to make such a HUGE CLAIM?

Besides what 'you', your own self, personally, KNOWS, tell us ALL how you could possibly KNOW what any one, or any thing else, KNOWS, and/or does NOT KNOW?

If you are NOT yet privy to some thing, then that does NOT mean that it is NOT YET ALREADY KNOWN. Unless you can SHOW and PROVE otherwise.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm Spiritual reality is very confusing when you notice that everyone there can put thoughts into your mind.

1. So called "spiritual reality" may be very confusing to 'you', but 'you' are NOT every one.

2. I do NOT have a "mind'. Therefore, 'thoughts' can NOT be put into this non-thing.

3. Thoughts get shared about. But this does NOT mean that confusion can not be defended against.

If, 'you', human beings, are confused, and do NOT know how to get out of that confusion that you are in, then that is one thing. But making the claim that some things are NOT YET KNOWN, when you do NOT know EVERY thing, is another thing.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:23 pm
I cannot follow you here well. So God created this mess in order to decide about who gets to reincarnate?
God createS through evolution ALWAYS, and through that came an animal with intelligence, IF that animal chooses to make "a mess", then so be it.

The ANSWERS to a living a Truly peaceful life are HERE to SEE, but IF human beings choose to otherwise, LOOK AT and SEE things differently, then so be it.

God is NOT going to force any one to do any thing that they do NOT want to do anyway.

Even if the human species wipes themselves out, the Universe is infinite so along, through evolution, will come "another intelligent" species, and if they 'play their cards right', then they get to stay in the game, and enjoy ALL the benefits of what is MEANS to be alive and existing.
Growing through evolution is a mess.

ONLY IF that is how you observe and see things.

Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer.

To me, evolving within Creation is pure Bliss and Perfection. The order of things are exactly where they are meant to be.

Although 'you', human beings, are making a mess of things, this can and will be overcome, once you become OPEN enough again, to discover and learn HOW to change your lives around.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pmWe have to eat each other, kill each other,... to make sure that we have a secure life.

LOL

The blatantly obvious and absurd contradiction here speaks for itself.

You did say and mean, "We HAVE TO eat and kill each other to MAKE SURE we have a SECURE life", right?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:23 pm
So Jesus was a lier?
That all depends on how one LOOKS AT, HEARS, and what they SEE in words.

You can either be sent to "hell in a hand basket" by continually doing the wrong that you are doing here ON EARTH, OR, you can go to heaven by just changing for the better. Again, hell or heaven is HOW 'we', human beings, make life for ourselves.

When human beings STOP thinking about and misinterpreting the 'after life' as though it is some thing about some STUPID place that after they themselves die, then that is where they go, THEN they could START LOOKING AT what the actual Truth of things is instead.
So, you don't believe in spiritual reality?

Besides the FACT that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing, I have absolutely NO idea how you could even make such an ASSUMPTION as this.

By the way, what do you mean by 'spiritual reality'?

To me, the spiritual plays an EQUAL part as the physical does. As is OBVIOUS and EVIDENCED in what I write and say here. in this forum.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:55 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:49 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:21 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:37 pm
There are two questions here: 1) Is creating evil nature is good/evil?
Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer. So, if you see there is an 'evil nature', then so be it, AND, If creating a so called "evil nature" is good OR evil, then that is solely depended upon YOU.

But, remember, you HAVE TO BE able to define the words you are using, otherwise this is ALL just a complete waste of time.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:37 pmand 2) It is for sure that an agent with free will eventually commit evil if s/he has an evil nature so was the act of creating a free agent with evil nature is good/evil?
Again, IF you are unwilling to define the words you use, then that is WHY you are unable to answer these questions, and so you ask "others" to answer them for you.

But you do this with an underlying BELIEF and ASSUMPTION ALREADY anyway, so, your ulterior motive here is being DRIVEN by the very things you are putting up for question. You are NOT going to achieve what it is that you would love to achieve.
What word would you like that I define?

The ones that I had asked you earlier.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:58 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:53 am I am just curious "immanuel can" do you think you 'sin' less than other human beings?

No, I think everybody sins. As the Bible says, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God," and "If we say we have not sinned, we make God out to be a liar, and the truth is not in us." So I guess that pretty much settles that question, doesn't it?

But one can realize that, and do something about it; or one can carry on as one is. That's what free will entails.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:07 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:39 pm You might like to read this.

Or not. It doesn't tell me anything I didn't know.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:34 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:53 am
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:14 am But what do you believe?

It does NOT matter what "other" people believe.

Most of those beliefs will be just flat out obviously WRONG anyway.
I think that we are evolving interacting minds.
Do you KNOW the difference between the two questions;
1. What do you 'believe'? And,
2. What do you think?

If you do, then when I ask you, What do you 'believe', then your reply would NOT start with, "I think ...".

Now either you 'believe' some thing, or you do not.

If it is the latter, then just say so. But if it is the former, then just say what it is that you 'believe'.

When, and if, you do that, then we can move onto what this 'minds' thing is exactly, which you speak about?

That is the problem with you, i.e. wasting unncessary time and effort plus causing more confusion to the argument.
You have problem with 'theory of mind' and is unable to 'step' into the mind of others.

When Bahman stated,
"I think that we are evolving interacting minds"
it is generally understand as 'I believe .."

Point is how can one believe without 'thinking' and in that context, what was thought is definitely related to believe.

Note the general meaning of "think"

1. have a particular belief or idea.
"she thought that nothing would be the same again"

2. direct one's mind towards someone or something; use one's mind actively to form connected ideas.
-Google dictionary

If is not believe, he would have to say, "in my opinion..." speculate, and the likes which is of lesser conviction.

You could have avoided the above hoo-hah by asking Bahman for a further explanation to his statement.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:40 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:36 pm
Ok. I already correct the first question. I mean God created our nature which is partly evil.
But this is what you BELIEVE and NOT actually true at all.
I am just asking a question. As I stated this thread is about the origin of evil given the fact that the story within the Bible is literal.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am You keep saying; God created this, God created that. But you do NOT even believe there is such a thing as God, so WHY say such idiotic things as this?
I am challenging people's beliefs.

But this is NOT what you are really doing at all.

What you are really doing is, you are just 'trying to' quash "others" competing BELIEFS, so that your BELIEFS can be reinforced. You have a BELIEF, this contradicts "others" BELIEFS, therefore, to make your BELIEFS true, right, and correct, you have to somehow rid the BELIEFS that "others" have. All you are, essentially, really doing is 'trying to' get "others" to BELIEVE what you BELIEVE is true, right, and correct.

Instead of pretending to be "challenging "other's" beliefs" what would be a much better and a far more helpful thing to is for ALL of 'you', adult human beings, to CHALLENGE, by questioning, your OWN BELIEFS with absolute and full Honesty and OPENNESS.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am Also, human beings ARE Created. Full stop.
How do you know? Have you been there?

Through continuous experiential studying.

What do you think happens when a male human being successfully procreates with a female human being?

If you are unsure, then they create a human being.

If you are still unaware ALL human beings ARE Created, this way. Therefore, ALL human beings ARE Created. Full stop.

And if you are not yet aware the process of continual Creation happens with and through evolution.

How I KNOW this? is again through continuous experiential studying.

Have I been "there", which is really just HERE? yes.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am Now define what the 'nature' of being human IS EXACTLY?
Nature: Inherent or basic features of something. Our nature is partly good and partly evil. I have already given you an instance of good and evil so I hope that you know what I mean.

If 'Nature' is the inherent or basic feature of some thing, then it is NOT created. It is just within, NATURALLY.

Nature exists no matter what. So Nature can NOT be created nor destroyed.

'you', human beings, have the ability to do good or wrong. But to do either is not necessarily your nature.

Human beings 'nature' is to discover and learn. This is what they NATURALLY do. Whether they do good or wrong is solely depended upon the past experiences of one. What is good and what is wrong is learned, and, doing what is wrong or doing what is good is also learned.

If any thing human beings have a natural tendency to do what is good rather than do what is wrong.

So, continually 'trying to' bring some misconception that the "nature' of human beings is partly 'evil' is only because you are 'trying to' back up and support some BELIEF that you are holding onto now. It is also a way to self-"justify" one's own wrong doing.

I KNOW what you are 'trying to' mean. But the Truth will ALWAYS override that.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am Then we will SEE if human beings are created with a nature that is partly 'evil'?
We kill each other. That is evil.

Why is it evil?

And WHY do you kill each other when the Truth IS obviously that you DO NOT HAVE TO?

Also, just a very short while ago you said, and thus were 'trying to' "justify" that, "We have to eat each other, kill each other,... to make sure that we have a secure life."

IF, as you propose, you HAVE TO kill each other, (to contradictory and laughably, supposedly "survive") then surely that would then NOT be 'evil'.

But maybe when you use and say the word 'evil' you mean some thing else completely different from what I do. So, what do you actually mean when you use and say the word 'evil'?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am And, remember, just because you say some thing, that, in itself, does NOT make it true, right, and/or correct.
Ok. But remember that the same applies to you.

Yes, of course it does. And, you do NOT have to remind me, especially considering that it was ME, WHO WROTE IT down and thus said it.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:36 pm Is the act of creation of such nature good or evil?
What an idiotic question; Is the creation of evil nature good or evil?
It is a very relevant question.

If an 'evil nature' was created, then is the act of creating that good or evil?

What do you propose is the answer to your OWN question.

First you would have to KNOW what 'evil' actually means.

Also, I have already explained HOW that 'act', if possible, can be good and can be evil.

Remember, absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am Break down the question by defining the actual words you use in the question.
Creation is an act of bringing something to existence from nothing.

What about defining the other words, just like I suggested doing.

But now that you have defined the word 'creation' as; an act of bringing something to existence from nothing.

Now would you like to share how it is actually possible to bring some thing from no thing?

As I have said earlier, once you HAVE and KNOW the complete definitions of words, then you WILL HAVE thee ANSWERS to the Truth of ALL things.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:02 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:29 am Also, how long are you going to persist in 'trying to' formulate some "argument", which you think/believe will convince ALL human beings forever more to STOP believing what you BELIEVE is True, that is; God does NOT exist?
My argument is very simple and valid in its current form.

If your argument is very simple and valid in its current form, then what is there to discuss.

If your so called "argument" is valid, then what is there that you are questioning exactly?

Also, how about writing your current so called "argument" in point form down again, so that I can actually SEE it.

You have previously informed me that this thread is about; the origin of evil given the fact that the story within the Bible is literal and correct.

So, how about again explaining, in the most simplest, point form argument, just HOW the bible is literal AND correct, then explain what 'evil' means to you, and then explain what IS the origin of 'evil' exactly again?

If you ALREADY have a "current simple and valid argument", then it will NOT be hard at all to bring it to light, again and/or now.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:32 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:18 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:18 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 pm My argument is based on the sin of pride that Satan committed. Satan must have an evil nature in order to feel pride.
The famous poet, John Milton, author of the great epic poem,Paradise Lost, described free will this way:

"I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th' Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood and them who faild;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell."

That line is an interesting one. It means that one doesn't have to have an intrinsically evil nature in order to choose evil;
You are missing my point. I am not talking about choosing evil but feeling evil. One needs to have an evil nature to feel evil, pride for example.

So, considering I do NOT feel pride and thus also have NO pride, then what does that make my so called "nature"?

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:37 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:31 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:18 pm You are missing my point. I am not talking about choosing evil but feeling evil. One needs to have an evil nature to feel evil, pride for example.
I don't think so.

In the Biblical account, once makes the bad choice, one's nature changes as a result -- from "free" to "capable of evil." That's what's implied by that phrase, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Prior to that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the possibility of evil at all -- only of the good. But afterward, their natures became such that they did.

Was that the case with Satan? The simple and true answer is this: nobody knows.

But I do KNOW.

How many times does this NEED to be told?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:31 pmWe're not told.

But 'you' are told.

You just do NOT see nor LISTEN.

You do NOT see nor listen because you are blinded by your own ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS.

This is what I have been TELLING you. But, again, you do NOT listen.

When you read the bible, or absolutely any other thing, from the completely OPEN perspective, then you will SEE that 'you' WERE TOLD, and that the Truth IS you were just NOT listening.

Posted: **Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:40 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:53 am
Age wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:25 am
How old are you? Honest question. I have to ask, since you raised it.
I raised 'it' knowing you would ASSUME some thing, which you obviously have, and then I can point out that it is better to NEVER assume any thing. Although I thank you for asking a clarifying question your question is based on an ASSUMPTION, so I will leave it alone as I have also raised, 'you', human beings, as well.
I make no assumption. You could be 80, or you could be 15. I'm simply asking why you used the expression "You, adults." You didn't say, "We adults," so you must not include yourself...unless you misspoke, which you are free to say.

So what is the answer to that unassuming question?

I have said, 'you', adult human beings, many times before. Have you not read or seen or noticed this before?

I have also said, 'you', human beings, have you read, seen or noticed this before?

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