Philosophy Now Forum

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Fuck that.
http://www.businessinsider.de/intellige ... 016-8?IR=T

Hey, fuck what you want.

Yeah, I was up late last night as usual.

Me too. Should I call your wife a cab?

Dalek Prime wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote: Hey, fuck what you want.

Yeah, I was up late last night as usual.

Me too. Should I call your wife a cab?

You can call here a cab if you wish but her name of Cath.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Yeah, I was up late last night as usual.

Me too. Should I call your wife a cab?

You can call here a cab if you wish but her name of Cath.

Close enough.

"Determinism brings tolerance as well as liberation."

Nope, only the illusion of tolerance, the illusion of liberation.

If one is determined (again, a bio-robot) then, as one's program allows, one will be tolerant (or not), liberated (or not).

Can't take credit for diddly, can't be proud of diddly, can't be ashamed of diddly, and where you do or are, it's only cuz that's how the cookie crumbles, how the domino falls.

henry quirk wrote:"Determinism brings tolerance as well as liberation."

Nope, only the illusion of tolerance, the illusion of liberation.

If one is determined (again, a bio-robot) then, as one's program allows, one will be tolerant (or not), liberated (or not).

Can't take credit for diddly, can't be proud of diddly, can't be ashamed of diddly, and where you do or are, it's only cuz that's how the cookie crumbles, how the domino falls.

Rock and roll, Henry. Right on.

Immanuel Can wrote:Rock and roll, Henry. Right on.

That's funny from you as if your 'God' exists then it is all determined.

Let´s assume for a second that everything HAS been determined.

Why are so many people, most of them actually, so strongly convinced that they are free agents ? Why this illusion of free will ?
Why has this strong illusion developed the way it has ?
What´s the point ?

A_uk,

Never saw/don't see the conflict between 'god' and 'human choice'.

Seems to me 'god' sits outside the snowglobe, can see the snowglobe in its entirety, is aware of all the possibilities and probabiliities, each being equally real to it, but not a one meaning diddly till some one (one of us) 'chooses'.

This means there is a real 'now' with past and future being somewhat less than, or other than, 'real' (a notion I like with or without a divine overseer).

But, I'm just a filthy nonbeliever, so what do I know?

#

dus,

Indeed. The Rhoomba pinballs around cleaning floor/carpet and is oblivious to everything. Why am I different (if I'm equally determined)?

henry quirk wrote:A_uk,

Never saw/don't see the conflict between 'god' and 'human choice'.

But, I'm just a filthy nonbeliever, so what do I know?

A heck of a lot, it seems.

You're quite right.

Determinism and Free Will are not coextensive with Theism. Within the large category of Theism you find both beliefs. There are large groups of people who are "spiritual voluntarists," or "pietists," or other believers in freedom of choice; and there is smaller but still significant group called "Calvinists" who are Determinists. And that's just within Christianity -- what about all the other Theisms?

Likewise, there are Atheists who believe in Determinism (Materialists, Naturalists), and Atheists who insist on the existence of some kind of free will, like the Existentialists do.

So there's no hay to be made on misrepresenting the link between Theism and Determinism as being automatic. It's logically unsustainable and empirically untrue to say that the former entails the latter.

henry quirk wrote:A_uk,

Never saw/don't see the conflict between 'god' and 'human choice'.

Seems to me 'god' sits outside the snowglobe, can see the snowglobe in its entirety, is aware of all the possibilities and probabiliities, each being equally real to it, but not a one meaning diddly till some one (one of us) 'chooses'.

This means there is a real 'now' with past and future being somewhat less than, or other than, 'real' (a notion I like with or without a divine overseer).

But, I'm just a filthy nonbeliever, so what do I know?

I'm fine with a 'God' that sits outside and let's the show run with no interference. In fact this is what I argue to the theists all the time when they worry about scientific explanations, e.g. the Theory of Evolution, just pop your 'God' back to starting the process and then have 'it' not interfering but many seem to dislike this as they also keep having to lose their reason for behaving morally. There is also the issue that most theists want their 'God' to be Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Now if they want to lose one or all of these then I'm happy with that but I've yet to hear one who really does, and if they don't they they have a real issue with their will and 'God's' will.

Welcome Dave. My name is Don.
I likewise am a determinist.
Hence this and a few more assertions are all I'm permitted to say.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum..

What I am NOT, is a person who believes that the creature Ayn Rand has displayed anything meaningfullly describable as "philosophy."
I am 71 years of age and I got over her exactly 57 years ago. As is well described by the following:

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world.
The other, of course, involves Orcs.”

– John Rogers, Kung Fu Monkey
All best wishes,
Maturin

Maturin wrote:Welcome Dave. My name is Don.
I likewise am a determinist.
Hence this and a few more assertions are all I'm permitted to say.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum.
Including this sentence, over which likewise I have no choice including all that follows ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum ad infinitum..

What I am NOT, is a person who believes that the creature Ayn Rand has displayed anything meaningfullly describable as "philosophy."
I am 71 years of age and I got over her exactly 57 years ago. As is well described by the following:

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world.
The other, of course, involves Orcs.”

– John Rogers, Kung Fu Monkey
All best wishes,
Maturin

I like the way you think.