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Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:51 am
by Greta
Walker wrote:To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all.
Wrong.
A terrorist knows the value of human life. That's why high kill numbers is the objective for a terrorist. More lives destroyed, more terror inflicted upon humanity. Terrorist objective achieved.
You are both wrong
In conflict, objectification of the "other" is routine and terrorism is the only way that a weaker party can compete in conflict with a much more resourced and technologically-enabled opponent.
Terrorists are just people, not special or different to us, simply in conflict with our polity and at a disadvantage in terms of resources. So they attack the targets they can access but would otherwise not be their first choice. What else do they do if strategic facilities are too tightly guarded?
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:54 am
by Dalek Prime
To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all.
Walker wrote:
Wrong.
A terrorist knows the value of human life. That's why high kill numbers is the objective for a terrorist. More lives destroyed, more terror inflicted upon humanity. Terrorist objective achieved.
Walker, who's quote is this you're answering? You tried to make it look like mine, which it isn't. Is it even on this thread?
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:28 am
by sthitapragya
Walker wrote:sthitapragya wrote:
Even after the mind, it is doubtful if intrinsic value exists. All assigned value is subjective. Most of us subjectively assign value to human life. To a terrorist, there is no value of human life at all. Even for a person, the assigned value can change with time. A guy buys a large TV and is proud of it today, shows it off to all his friends. A few months down the line, in a fit of anger he breaks the TV deliberately. The value changed to nothing at that moment. Ten minutes later he will regret his decision. The value changed yet again.
So I agree with DP. There is no intrinsic value to anything.
Wrong.
A terrorist knows the value of human life. That's why high kill numbers is the objective for a terrorist. More lives destroyed, more terror inflicted upon humanity. Terrorist objective achieved.
Only because you misunderstood. The focus was not on what value a terrorist assigns to human life, it was on the subjectivity. The value of everything is subjectively decided by us. You value human life differently than a terrorist does. There is no intrinsic value.
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:20 am
by Greta
Dalek Prime wrote:A rock has value to universal equilibrium, but none to itself. And neither know of this, or care a whit. If the rock wasn't there, the universe would just have to behave differently. Neither a loss or a gain.
That's actually not bad - sorry, couldn't resist :). The above is seemingly true enough on universal scales. However, value and meaning increase the closer we come to particulars.
The rock certainly matters to the microbes (even if they don't know it) because the rock is their world. The rock also matters to animals using it as a home, temporary shelter or a hiding spot. It matters to humans and other animals who trip over it (probably clumsy humans to be fair), and a rock will matter to me if I use it in the garden.
So value is relative, centering on the self and diminishing with distance.
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:07 pm
by Dalek Prime
Greta wrote:Dalek Prime wrote:A rock has value to universal equilibrium, but none to itself. And neither know of this, or care a whit. If the rock wasn't there, the universe would just have to behave differently. Neither a loss or a gain.
That's actually not bad - sorry, couldn't resist
. The above is seemingly true enough on universal scales. However, value and meaning increase the closer we come to particulars.
The rock certainly matters to the microbes (even if they don't know it) because the rock is their world. The rock also matters to animals using it as a home, temporary shelter or a hiding spot. It matters to humans and other animals who trip over it (probably clumsy humans to be fair), and a rock will matter to me if I use it in the garden.
So value is relative, centering on the self and diminishing with distance.
Yes, 'matters to' microbes and animals, or something, being embued with value, not having it itself. Mind gives value, even microbe mind (I suppose).
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:12 pm
by Greta
Dalek Prime wrote:Yes, 'matters to' microbes and animals, or something, being embued with value, not having it itself. Mind gives value, even microbe mind (I suppose).
Maybe it's the raw unthinking needs of life that initially creates value, and consciousness basically piggybacks on those basic impulses?
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:14 pm
by Dalek Prime
Greta wrote:Dalek Prime wrote:Yes, 'matters to' microbes and animals, or something, being embued with value, not having it itself. Mind gives value, even microbe mind (I suppose).
Maybe it's the raw unthinking needs of life that initially creates value, and consciousness basically piggybacks on those basic impulses?
Perhaps. But don't quote me on it until I've had my first coffee.
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:26 pm
by Greta
Dalek Prime wrote:Greta wrote:Dalek Prime wrote:Yes, 'matters to' microbes and animals, or something, being embued with value, not having it itself. Mind gives value, even microbe mind (I suppose).
Maybe it's the raw unthinking needs of life that initially creates value, and consciousness basically piggybacks on those basic impulses?
Perhaps. But don't quote me on it until I've had my first coffee.
So you need to me to stay hush-hush about your recognition of intrinsic value? No problemo. I won't tell a soul.
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:49 pm
by henry quirk
Dal,
There is no such thing as 'intrinsic value'...it's all in the eye (mind) of the beholder (valuer)...any one who sez otherwise is fulla manure.
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:54 pm
by henry quirk
And: valuing is exclusively reserved for the self-conscious...that is: only an 'I' can value...you gotta have a mind for it (anything) to matter.
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:59 pm
by henry quirk
"A terrorist knows the value of human life"
No...the terrorist, being human, being an 'I', knows the human individual 'values' (him- or her-self, loved ones, things, etc.)...the 'terror' comes from the threat of loss of that which the individual values, not because that which is valued has inherent or unversal or absolute value.
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:59 pm
by Dalek Prime
Greta wrote:Dalek Prime wrote:Greta wrote:
Maybe it's the raw unthinking needs of life that initially creates value, and consciousness basically piggybacks on those basic impulses?
Perhaps. But don't quote me on it until I've had my first coffee.
So you need to me to stay hush-hush about your recognition of intrinsic value? No problemo. I won't tell a soul.
I don't recognize it. That's the thing. Your microbes gave the rock value.
By the way, there is no 'soul' to tell.
Re:
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:09 pm
by Dalek Prime
henry quirk wrote:Dal,
There is no such thing as 'intrinsic value'...it's all in the eye (mind) of the beholder (valuer)...any one who sez otherwise is fulla manure.
Yes, that's what I've been saying Henry. I can't accept intrinsic value. Greta worded it in such a way that I had to double think it, but it got straightened out in my head.
Re: Re:
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:09 am
by vegetariantaxidermy
Dalek Prime wrote:henry quirk wrote:Dal,
There is no such thing as 'intrinsic value'...it's all in the eye (mind) of the beholder (valuer)...any one who sez otherwise is fulla manure.
Yes, that's what I've been saying Henry. I can't accept intrinsic value. Greta worded it in such a way that I had to double think it, but it got straightened out in my head.
I'm inclined to agree. I tend to hold with the idea that nothing exists unless we 'give' it existence. Actually, quantum physics is discovering quite a few things that were once only in the realm of philosophy.
Re: Peofessional ttyranny
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:52 am
by Greta
Dalek Prime wrote:Greta wrote:Dalek Prime wrote:
Perhaps. But don't quote me on it until I've had my first coffee.
So you need to me to stay hush-hush about your recognition of intrinsic value? No problemo. I won't tell a soul.
I don't recognize it. That's the thing. Your microbes gave the rock value.
By the way, there is no 'soul' to tell.
When they find souls at the Planck scale youse heathens will eat your words! ;)
Seriously(-ish), if life itself confers value then that's intrinsic, isn't it? If that's the case then everything has value because we exist within nested and overlapping systems - Earth, Sun, Moon, other planets that help stabilise and protect us. Habitability issues no doubt extend to galactic scale, at least. All has value - to life.
Reality's systemic connections - along with the universe continually becoming more complex and, presumably, sentient - would seem to confer value to all things.
