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Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:57 am
by Obvious Leo
nix wrote: Your thesis is "Three-dimensional space is an artefact of human consciousness and not a physical property of the universe." If you were to follow your argument logically then you would have to assert " Time is an artefact of human consciousness and not a physical property of the universe" also, but you want to maintain a privileged place for time so that the universe is nothing but becoming.... you cannot build a science, or rebuild a science on this stuff....
Yes I can. Time is physical because of its relationship with gravity and this proposition is provable.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:48 pm
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote:
nix wrote: Your thesis is "Three-dimensional space is an artefact of human consciousness and not a physical property of the universe." If you were to follow your argument logically then you would have to assert " Time is an artefact of human consciousness and not a physical property of the universe" also, but you want to maintain a privileged place for time so that the universe is nothing but becoming.... you cannot build a science, or rebuild a science on this stuff....
Yes I can. Time is physical because of its relationship with gravity and this proposition is provable.
If it is time's relation to gravity that makes it real, you then have to allow that space's relationship to gravity will make it real also by the same argument.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:29 pm
by Obvious Leo
nix wrote: If it is time's relation to gravity that makes it real, you then have to allow that space's relationship to gravity will make it real also by the same argument.
In accordance with your very own defined criteria the same argument cannot be applied. There is a precise mathematical relationship between time and gravity which is inversely logarithmic in its nature, as elaborated in GR, and this same relationship cannot be extended to the Cartesian space. This is what all the fuss is about in physics because this non-relationship between space and gravity means that gravity cannot be quantised and this leaves the spacetime paradigm high and dry without a mechanism for gravitational motion. In this respect the 4D manifold is no improvement on the Newtonian space because gravity remains an action-at-a-distance assumption and cannot be applied to the sub-atomic domain with its definition of "forces" in terms of particle exchange.

However in a sense this point is only tangential to the central thrust of my philosophy. I'm not actually talking about new physics in my process model although I've no doubt that new physics can eventually be derived from it. What I'm mainly getting at is a new way of thinking about the physics we've already got. By redefining determinism I offer a different narrative for physics which is more closely aligned with the intuitive way we think the world. I wouldn't even dare to call it a new procedure of thought because this is the narrative which has underpinned every major philosophical school in human history. I assert that physics has no authority to disregard this narrative and much to learn by embracing it because all of its various paradoxes and metaphysical absurdities simply disappear. The blunt truth is that we don't live in a Newtonian universe and thus we can't describe it with Newton's tools.

Finish reading the story.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:03 pm
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote:
nix wrote: If it is time's relation to gravity that makes it real, you then have to allow that space's relationship to gravity will make it real also by the same argument.
There is a precise mathematical relationship between time and gravity which is inversely logarithmic in its nature, as elaborated in GR.
By inversely logarithmic you mean exponential? To what exactly are you referring here?

Are you referring to the variation in time of the Hubble constant,H ? Or the scale factor a(t) ~ exp(Ht) ? where H proportional to SQRT (G) the gravitational constant. But if you accept the scale factor as 'real' then you must accord the same ontological status to that which it is scaling which is the space dimensions for it only has meaning in reference to those dimensions.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:10 pm
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote: In this respect the 4D manifold is no improvement on the Newtonian space because gravity remains an action-at-a-distance assumption.
No it does not and explicitly so! GR describes gravity as an effect which propagates through space at a finite rate (the speed of light). That is what gravity waves are all about, which are predicted by GR. For an action at a distance theory the interaction is instantaneous.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:41 pm
by nix
Given that objects with mass exist, If everything in space were permenantly frozen in place there would be no such thing as physically real time.

Just as the distribution of objects defines physical space, so the change in this distribution defines physical time. So the ontological status of physical time cannot be different from the ontological status of physical space.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:54 pm
by Obvious Leo
nix wrote:Given that objects with mass exist, If everything in space were permenantly frozen in place there would be no such thing as physically real time.

Just as the distribution of objects defines physical space, so the change in this distribution defines physical time. So the ontological status of physical time cannot be different from the ontological status of physical space.
I'm referring to something far simpler. Set aside your conceptual bias for a moment and assume that time is exactly what it appears to be and that it indeed PASSES. Since this has been the view of every major philosopher in history it's not such a crackpot idea, nix. If the passage of time is an ontologically real phenomenon, contrary to the spacetime model, then the speed at which it passes must likewise be regarded as real. However the speed at which time passes is inversely proportional to the strength of the gravitational "field",in a defined and precise mathematical relationship. When we specify one we automatically specify the other in whatever units of measurement we choose to adopt. This means that gravity and time are simply two different ways of expressing the same thing and can therefore be quantised equivalently in an interval such as the Planck interval. THIS IS QUANTUM GRAVITY. This relationship between gravity and time can be modelled in a 2D Euclidean plane as an absurdly steep hyperbola, the "flat" section of which represents a region which is describable by SR to a very high order of approximation.

However the apparently "flat" section of a hyperbolic curve is not in fact a straight line but a very flat curve and this gets rid of the nonsensical "flat space" assumed in the Standard Model. Electrons do indeed orbit their nuclei in exactly the same way as planets orbit their stars and this immediately gets rid of all the quantum weirdness. The gravitational motion of all bodies in an n-body system is CHAOTIC and the precise trajectory of none of them can ever be precisely determined, even in principle. On a cosmological scale these chaotic perturbations are negligible but not irrelevant. However on the sub-atomic scale they are of enormous consequence simply because of the enormous relativistic speeds of the particles concerned. Any meaningful predictions can only be derived probabilistically, such as with wave functions.

This is where the laws of physics come from, nix, which are actually no such thing. Physics manages to get cause and effect arse-about by assuming that reality is made according to a suite of physical laws and this is the observer problem which gave rise to god and physics equally. Humans are pattern-recognisers and assume that the orderly patterns we observe in nature must be the consequence of a law-derived reality but this assumption is false. Electro-magnetism is not a cause of the electrons orbit but an emergent effect of the electrons orbit. The same goes for all the other various forces and fields we choose to invent to model our observations. In fact the same goes for the particles themselves which can only be sensibly modelled as point-like entities in the Cartesian space. The laws of physics are simply the laws of physicists because gravity and time alone are needed to account for our observations at the sub-atomic scale and both gravity and time are absent from the Standard Model. Every physicist worthy of the name knows perfectly well that this is what's wrong with this model but the problem lies with the a priori narrative they proceed from and their understanding of determinism. The motion of all physical entities in the universe is determined non-linearly and not linearly as Newton assumed. Can't you see that if nature was linearly determined then the entire future of the universe would be predictable, a proposition which flies in the face of the facts?

Sub-atomic particles move in exactly the same way as the gas molecules in Brownian motion. Even today you might read in a physics text that such motion is random but this is utter bullshit. This motion is CHAOTIC and chaotic motion is both completely deterministic and utterly unpredictable. There is no such thing as random motion in a causal reality and conflating non-predictability with randomness is the biggest conceptual blunder in physics because it puts the cart before the horse. In non-linear dynamic systems matter and energy are SELF-ORGANISING according to only the single meta-law of cause and effect and it is this process of self-organisation which physics is mistakenly modelling as law-derived.

I'm not pulling your chain, nix, because I've been working on this problem for decades. This is the real deal and I can fucking well prove it.
nix wrote:
No it does not and explicitly so! GR describes gravity as an effect which propagates through space at a finite rate (the speed of light). That is what gravity waves are all about, which are predicted by GR. For an action at a distance theory the interaction is instantaneous.
This answers nothing. It doesn't answer HOW these so-called gravitational waves are propagated and without such a mechanism spooky action at a distance won't simply go away. In a spaceless model the speed of light and the speed at which time passes are one and the same thing and thus such a model offers a simple and obvious mechanism for gravity. Such phenomena as gravitational lensing and the "expanding space" become self-explanatory because gravity is not seen as a force but as a fundamental property of the universe from which all the other so-called forces derive.
nix wrote:Given that objects with mass exist, If everything in space were permenantly frozen in place there would be no such thing as physically real time.
Exactly. Once you assume the physical existence of the Cartesian space then physically real time is impossible. Ontologically it is clear that time and space are mutually exclusive constructs, a fact which gave rise to Minkowski's frozen "block". Time and space cannot both be physically real and I'm claiming that Einstein nailed his colours to the wrong mast because he misinterpreted the findings of Michelson-Morley. (In fact Einstein was barely aware of this experiment at the time when he published SR but that's a whole different story.)
nix wrote: So the ontological status of physical time cannot be different from the ontological status of physical space.
This is logically nonsensical and not even a physicist would buy it if you could find one who knew what ontology meant. Relativity means that only one can be physically real thus defining the other as only relatively or contingently real.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:25 am
by nix
As I said you cannot build a science on this mystical nonsense. Your views are incoherent and could not be turned into a mathematical model which could make any predictions of future phenomena in the physical universe.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:32 am
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote:
nix wrote:Given that objects with mass exist, If everything in space were permenantly frozen in place there would be no such thing as physically real time.

Just as the distribution of objects defines physical space, so the change in this distribution defines physical time. So the ontological status of physical time cannot be different from the ontological status of physical space.
I'm referring to something far simpler. Set aside your conceptual bias for a moment and assume that time is exactly what it appears to be and that it indeed PASSES. If the passage of time is an ontologically real phenomenon, contrary to the spacetime model, then the speed at which it passes must likewise be regarded as real. However the speed at which time passes is inversely proportional to the strength of the gravitational "field",in a defined and precise mathematical relationship. When we specify one we automatically specify the other

How do you know time passes? By the changes in the physical world around you (this includes your own body/mind). Time is then only as real as the world around you (or you are). If you want to involve a gravitational field in the reality of time that pre supposes a space coordinate in which the field is defined (a field is a spacial thing). so if the gravitational field is real then so is the space in which it is defined!

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:43 am
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote: Electrons do indeed orbit their nuclei in exactly the same way as planets orbit their stars and this immediately gets rid of all the quantum weirdness... Any meaningful predictions can only be derived probabilistically, such as with wave functions.
Two directly contradictory models of reality, the quantum mechanical picture of electrons described by wavefunctions is incompatible with the planetary picture of trajectories, (because of the uncertainty principle which is an essential byproduct of the wavefunction picture). The stationary states of atoms cannot be modeled by a planetary picture... this was all worked out quantitatively a long time ago.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:59 am
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote: In a spaceless model the speed of light and the speed at which time passes are one and the same thing and thus such a model offers a simple and obvious mechanism for gravity.
This is meaningless nonsense! The "speed of light" has no meaning in a spaceless model! How do you know what the speed of time passing is in a spaceless universe? The expression has no meaning. What do you mean by a "mechanism for gravity"? We can describe how gravity behaves but not a mechanism, as I mentioned GR shows that gravity is not an instantaneous action at a distance thing and that gravity waves are involved in propagating its effect at light speed across space. But you want a metaphysical "why" space, time and gravity behave this way. Science is concerned with getting a physical description of the phenomena.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:12 am
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote: Such phenomena as gravitational lensing and the "expanding space" become self-explanatory because gravity is not seen as a force but as a fundamental property of the universe from which all the other so-called forces derive.
If so then the size of the bending of light observed, and the rate of expansion should be calculable from you model. But you do not actually have a model that can give any predictions; You keep saying you have proofs of various assertions but your published thesis has no proofs in it of the sort you assert in this thread. All other forces do not derive from gravity, Einstein's spent years on a search for such a unified field description but failed and no one else has succeded in this. It might be that there is a single description from which all forces arise but it is not gravity, it may be a field from which gravity and the other forces (electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force) all come. But as yet that is complete speculation: we just don't know!

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:13 am
by Obvious Leo
nix wrote:As I said you cannot build a science on this mystical nonsense. Your views are incoherent and could not be turned into a mathematical model which could make any predictions of future phenomena in the physical universe.
I'm not trying to build a science. I'm trying to provide an explanatory framework for the science we already have. Nevertheless it is a legitimate scientific hypothesis because it yields testable predictions which would falsify current theory.

I have no comment to offer on your other posts because you merely refute what I say by saying what I refute which does not constitute an argument. However I have a question for you to answer.

Is it the case that matter and energy in the universe travel through time at the speed of light? I've put this same question to dozens of highly qualified physicists over the years and all have agreed that this is one way of looking at it but that this is not the way that physics is done. This is my very point because this alternative way of looking at the same facts leads to an entirely different set of conclusions.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:18 am
by Obvious Leo
nix wrote:All other forces do not derive from gravity, Einstein's spent years on a search for such a unified field description but failed and no one else has succeded in this.
Do you think I don't fucking know this? This is what I'm banging on about. Einstein failed and he knew why he failed. He conceded not long before he died that he was probably using the wrong mathematical tools and he bloody well WAS. It was Poincare who was on the right track with relativity not the idiot Minkowski. Time is NOT a Cartesian dimension, it's a fractal dimension.

In most philosophical discussions it is considered ungentlemanly to criticise a person's philosophy without first reading it.

Re: Thinking Straight About Curved Space

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:21 am
by nix
Obvious Leo wrote:[
nix wrote:Given that objects with mass exist, If everything in space were permenantly frozen in place there would be no such thing as physically real time.
Exactly. Once you assume the physical existence of the Cartesian space then physically real time is impossible.
No that doesn't follow, because everything is not frozen in place, hence time exists as changes in the complexions of this Cartesian space, if it weren't for the objects in the Cartesian space and their variations we could not even define time!