Philosophy Now Forum

thedoc wrote:There is a point here I would like to address, that of proof destroying faith. I have often heard that one can only "believe" in what one does not know for sure, and that proof will destroy belief and faith. I disagree, I can believe that something is true whether it has been proven or not, and I can have just as much faith in that truth, with or without proof. Attofishpi, I know that this point was not part of your post but it seemed relevant. I agree that many of the conclusions about religion are based on logically structured arguments, but much in religion is expected to be accepted on faith alone, and basing conclusions on a faith based premise is not logical, at least not in my understanding of logic. I do have some grounding in logical arguments, and I am familiar with the possibilities, sound premises - sound conclusion, unsound premises - unsound conclusion, unsound premises - sound conclusion (a possibility) and I understand that there may be other permutations. I will reiterate one point here, I said religion is not "Based" on logic, and in this I believe it is true that most religion is based on faith in that which cannot be proven, conclusions derived from these faith based premises may be logically structured, but the basic premises are based on belief and faith.

mtmynd1 wrote:

attofishpi wrote: If one knew God exists one must intelligently apply logic to understand how and\or why. Or does knowing God exists negate religion..
Having belief and faith still requires a certain amount of logic, otherwise one is little more than an idiot.

If one is an atheist must your criteria still hold, i.e. "one must intelligently apply logic to understand how and\or why"..?

...and "Having belief and faith still requires a certain amount of logic.."
how much of your "certain amount" would suffice in having this belief and faith? 10%?... 25%... 63%... when is it that pushes the mind into believing?

Having "logic" is an extension of mind which never ends in it's quest for answers. Become enamored in one's mind is becoming akin to being held prisoner within that mind and hence the inability to ever find ones true Self. Mind is not Self but a tool to our survival on this plane of existence.

attofishpi wrote:
My point was for someone that KNOWS God exists. I don't believe there is a term for that. As i have stated before, one cannot KNOW that God does not exist as that would require knowing everything about the universe\multiverse, surely you agree that this would be very unlikely to ever come to fruition.

Ginkgo wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
My point was for someone that KNOWS God exists. I don't believe there is a term for that. As i have stated before, one cannot KNOW that God does not exist as that would require knowing everything about the universe\multiverse, surely you agree that this would be very unlikely to ever come to fruition.

There is actually a term for that and it is called shifting the burden of proof by pointing out the lack of evidence to the contrary.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

attofishpi wrote:

Ginkgo wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
My point was for someone that KNOWS God exists. I don't believe there is a term for that. As i have stated before, one cannot KNOW that God does not exist as that would require knowing everything about the universe\multiverse, surely you agree that this would be very unlikely to ever come to fruition.

There is actually a term for that and it is called shifting the burden of proof by pointing out the lack of evidence to the contrary.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

That is not what i am doing...not shifting, just making a rational logical statement.

Do you agree that IF there is a God, a wo\man would be capable of KNOWING it exists?
Do you agree that IF there is NO God, a wo\man would not be capable of KNOWING it doesnt exist?

In my state of affairs, i KNOW God exists.

Ginkgo wrote:

attofishpi wrote:

Ginkgo wrote:There is actually a term for that and it is called shifting the burden of proof by pointing out the lack of evidence to the contrary.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

That is not what i am doing...not shifting, just making a rational logical statement.

Do you agree that IF there is a God, a wo\man would be capable of KNOWING it exists?
Do you agree that IF there is NO God, a wo\man would not be capable of KNOWING it doesnt exist?

In my state of affairs, i KNOW God exists.

If there is God then it is possible that someone could know this

If there is no God then it is possible that someone might now this.


I am sure that you know God exists.

attofishpi wrote:
If there is God then it is possible that someone could know this. <-- This only requires God to bother making itself known to an individual.

If there is no God then it is possible that someone might now this. <-- This requires that someone knows EVERYTHING about the universe\multiverse.

Ginkgo wrote:If there is God then it is possible that someone could know this

If there is no God then it is possible that someone might now this.

attofishpi wrote: My point was for someone that KNOWS God exists. I don't believe there is a term for that. As i have stated before, one cannot KNOW that God does not exist as that would require knowing everything about the universe\multiverse, surely you agree that this would be very unlikely to ever come to fruition.

ReliStuPhD wrote:

Ginkgo wrote:If there is God then it is possible that someone could know this

If there is no God then it is possible that someone might now this.

If we're talking about humans here, I'm not sure the latter is possible. Of course, I'm coming in at the end and don't know what definition of "to know" is being used here, so perhaps it's a less robust form of knowledge than I'm thinking of.

mtmynd1 wrote:

attofishpi wrote: My point was for someone that KNOWS God exists. I don't believe there is a term for that. As i have stated before, one cannot KNOW that God does not exist as that would require knowing everything about the universe\multiverse, surely you agree that this would be very unlikely to ever come to fruition.

One will never KNOW God by seeking a God outside themselves. Should the seeker "go within" they may find that "God" is "No Thing", a pure transcendental presence within all life which is "Pure Consciousness"... all-knowing beyond time and space, beyond matter, beyond belief, logic and intellect. Nobody can offer you or anyone else, "proof" of "No Thing" as that is a foolish expectation. Until you attain "nothingness" you will forever doubt the existence of "No Thing," pure transcendental presence beyond mundane existence, within all life, sustaining all Life.

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
If there is God then it is possible that someone could know this. <-- This only requires God to bother making itself known to an individual.

If there is no God then it is possible that someone might now this. <-- This requires that someone knows EVERYTHING about the universe\multiverse.

What is your reasoning and motive for wanting to prove God exists?

Ginkgo wrote:I take your point. It is extremely unlikely that someone knows that God doesn't exist.

How can we "know" if God does or does not exist is the key question. There are many possible ways of knowing, and as your point out some ways of knowing are less robust than others.

What is more robust is the claim that given the present state of our knowledge of the universe we cannot prove that God does not exist.

These two claims can be considered to be independent and there exists no means whereby we can distinguish between the two claims. Unless of course someone can do so without shifting the burden of proof.

mtmynd1 wrote:

attofishpi wrote: My point was for someone that KNOWS God exists. I don't believe there is a term for that. As i have stated before, one cannot KNOW that God does not exist as that would require knowing everything about the universe\multiverse, surely you agree that this would be very unlikely to ever come to fruition.

One will never KNOW God by seeking a God outside themselves. Should the seeker "go within" they may find that "God" is "No Thing", a pure transcendental presence within all life which is "Pure Consciousness"... all-knowing beyond time and space, beyond matter, beyond belief, logic and intellect. Nobody can offer you or anyone else, "proof" of "No Thing" as that is a foolish expectation. Until you attain "nothingness" you will forever doubt the existence of "No Thing," pure transcendental presence beyond mundane existence, within all life, sustaining all Life.

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:How can one obtain nothingness, as a means to erase doubt from one's mind about it's existence?

True nothingness cannot be remembered, if it could, it would not be nothingness, but "somethingness."