Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote:"why do you believe they have one (medical team) for their prisoners?"

Oh, I don't know for a fact (don't really care either), but that's what was reported.

Entirely possible there was no medical team on standby...*shrug*

That's a problem for many, they just don't care! Well, kinda anyway!

"Torture is inhumane."

Eye of the beholder.

henry quirk wrote:"Torture is inhumane."

Eye of the beholder.

Correct, Marquis de Sade didn't think torture was inhumane at all. Of course, he was incarcerated in various prisons and in an insane asylum for about 32 years of his life.

henry quirk wrote:"Torture is inhumane."

Eye of the beholder.

Who poked your fucking eyes out?

Lev Muishkin wrote:

henry quirk wrote:"Torture is inhumane."

Eye of the beholder.

Who poked your fucking eyes out?

You'll find that HQ is one that, like his avatar hints at, lives somewhat off the land, such that old world methods of living, sets his pace. I bet he actually owns a spear!

bobevenson wrote:

Wyman wrote:What atrocities are you referring to?

This is just a sample news report, but I'm sure you can come up with others that are even more nauseating:

As expected, the report reveals in chilling detail the brutality of some of the CIA's techniques.

Specific examples of brutality by CIA interrogators cited in the report include the November 2002 death from hypothermia of a detainee who had been held partially nude and chained to a concrete floor at a secret CIA prison.

Some were deprived of sleep for up to 180 hours, at times with their hands shackled above their heads, and subjected to "rectal feeding" or "rectal hydration" without any documented medical need.

The report describes one secret CIA prison, whose location is not identified, as a "dungeon" where detainees were kept in total darkness, constantly shackled in isolated cells, bombarded with loud noise or music, and given only a bucket in which to relieve themselves.

The report documents details how the interrogation of the captive Abu Zubaydah appears to have traumatised two civilian CIA contractors charged with training CIA operatives in the techniques. In the report the contractors are referred to by the pseudonyms Grayson Swigert and Hammond Dunbar (The New York Times has named these men as psychologists James E. Mitchell and Bruce Jessen).

According to the report Abu Zubaydah, who had already agreed to co-operation, was subjected to enhanced interrogation nearly 24 hours a day for 19 days after being held in complete isolation for 47 days.

During his interrogation a collar made from a towel was used to slam his head into walls, he was kept in stress positions and or in a coffin-shaped box and waterboarded regularly as medical staff stood by to keep him alive. Waterboarding involves pouring water over a cloth covering a restrained victim's face, causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning.

A medical officer wrote to superiors in an email entitled "And so it begins": "The sessions accelerated rapidly progressing quickly to the waterboard after large box, walling, and small box periods. [Abu Zubaydah] seems very resistant to the waterboard. Longest time with the cloth over his face so far has been 17 seconds. This is sure to increase shortly. NO useful information so far ... He did vomit a couple of times during the waterboard with some beans and rice. It's been 10 hours since he ate so this is surprising and disturbing. We plan to only feed Ensure [a nutritional supplement] for a while now. I'm head[ing] back for another waterboard session."

The report found documents recording how some CIA operatives present responded to the interrogation, noting that it was "visually and psychologically very uncomfortable".

A day later a note was made saying: "Today's first session had a profound effect on all staff members present ... it seems the collective opinion that we should not go much further ... everyone seems strong for now but if the group has to continue ... we cannot guarantee how much longer," and later that day, "Several on the team profoundly affected ... some to the point of tears and choking up."

The report found that plans were in place to cremate and dispose of him if he died in interrogation.

In a statement the CIA acknowledged "shortcomings" in the detention and interrogation program and that "the agency made mistakes".

But the statement said its own review found the program "did produce intelligence that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists, and save lives".

US President Barack Obama, who banned "enhanced interrogation" on his election, said in a statement the methods "were not only inconsistent with our values as nation, they did not serve our broader counterterrorism efforts or our national security interests".

"Moreover, these techniques did significant damage to America's standing in the world and made it harder to pursue our interests with allies and partners."

The only leading Republican to support the release of the report was Senator John McCain, who was tortured during the Vietnam War.

"Most of all, I know the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies," he said. "Our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights which are protected by international conventions, [which] the United States not only joined but for the most part, authored.

"I dispute wholeheartedly it was right for [CIA officers] to use these methods, which this report makes clear were neither in the best interest of justice, nor our security, nor the ideals we have sacrificed so much blood and treasure to defend," he said.

I said most of that, I just like to be concise. Still think waterboarding is the worst.

"de Sade"

A favorite of mine, for reasons you wouldn't, couldn't, understand.

#

"Who poked your fucking eyes out?"

My eyes, like yours, are in the sockets.

Unlike yours, mine are not covered with rose-colored glasses.

#

"I bet he actually owns a spear!"

Does a good, old-fashioned, wooden baseball bat count?

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Think you are just pulling our chains a bit.


I don't think you are, at all, in real life, the character you depict upon this forum.




Torture is inhumane.


Nothing good comes of it.



In saying that I realize that the whole spectrum of emotions and empathy must exist upon this topic.


Your fate. You would never stumbled upon this site if you were a straight-up brute.




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Believe what you like, Bill.

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...........................................And of course, say what you like...


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I personally, due to emotional content, (surely not intellectual, as intellectually I know that no one is really to blame, 100%, in and of themselves), would torture someone if, and only if, there was no doubt, whatsoever, that they killed one of my family members, someone I loved, not because of my loss, but rather that loss that the one I loved understood, in their final moments, knowing completely of the ways in which they were innocent, and as such, could imagine how they felt in their end.

Ever hear the joke about the man who asks a woman if she'll sleep with him for a million bucks? Punchline: You already established you're a prostitute, now we're haggling over the price.

henry quirk wrote:"some will tell you anything to get it to stop"

Sure.

Thing is: I torture Joe, he tells me anything to get me to stop, I move on the information he offered, I discover his information is for crap, I go back and torture him some more.

Really: is it in Joe's long-term interest to lie? He may think so as I'm zapping his nutsack, but I'm gonna be way harder on him if He misleads me.

There is no fairness in torture: pony up what I want and I may leave you be; convince me you truly know nuthin' and I may leave you be; lie to me and sure as hell I reattach the electric leads to your nutsack.

The progression for some folks here seems to be: 'never torture, but if you do, be fair about it'...a horseshit construct if there ever was one.

You are an idiot. If you are torturing people (which you are) then you are no better than the Inquisition. You are dragging us all back to the Middle Ages. You are no better than the islamic states. Actually you are worse, because you put yourself on a pedestal as being all about 'freedom' and enlightenment. At least muslim fundies fully admit they want to stay in the Middle Ages.

Wyman wrote:

I personally, due to emotional content, (surely not intellectual, as intellectually I know that no one is really to blame, 100%, in and of themselves), would torture someone if, and only if, there was no doubt, whatsoever, that they killed one of my family members, someone I loved, not because of my loss, but rather that loss that the one I loved understood, in their final moments, knowing completely of the ways in which they were innocent, and as such, could imagine how they felt in their end.

Ever hear the joke about the man who asks a woman if she'll sleep with him for a million bucks? Punchline: You already established you're a prostitute, now we're haggling over the price.

Yet one of the biggest falsehoods is the so called paradox contained in the question of, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"
In your case, was it the whoring of the man seeking a prostitute for companionship, (or maybe just release), or the whoring of the prostitute, seeking subsistence (or maybe companionship)?
In my case, was it the initial killer, or the initial torturer of a killer?
Did one come first, or did they simultaneously come to exist.
Does one beg the other?
Does one lead by example?
Does one give license to another, to do to them, what they did to another?
Should they expect no less, or much more?
Can you or anyone, for any sustained amount of time, simply turn the other cheek, so it too can be punched, whipped, flogged, sliced, again and again, simply turning to the fresher ever deteriorating side?
How many times before one finally blocks?
How many blocks before they become strikes?
How many strikes until, you're striking back harder than your opponent?
How many strikes before one of your die?
How many must die before the killer should die?
What's worse, to have your pain over quickly, or prolonged over much time?
What's more evil, to induce ones suffering with a quick end, or over much time?
What's more maddening for a loving couple, to die first, or to be the one left?
Do you wish to die first, or do you wish for your mate to die first?
Same question but your child first, or you?
Do you assume that it would be the easiest thing for me to do, or the hardest?
Do you believe that one could possibly know now, with certainty, how they might react to a given situation, in the future?
Psychologically, do you believe that one that would torture someone, under the circumstances which I have mentioned, would do so for a plethora of other reasons, well beyond the act of the one that they were "teaching a lesson?" A means to purge pent up baggage?

If so, then killers beware! This is advanced notice! To do so now, means you agree to the terms of the contract!

Again, EMOTIONALLY = Yes, INTELLECTUALLY = No. You could call it temporary insanity. Wait, Temporary????

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

henry quirk wrote:"some will tell you anything to get it to stop"

Sure.

Thing is: I torture Joe, he tells me anything to get me to stop, I move on the information he offered, I discover his information is for crap, I go back and torture him some more.

Really: is it in Joe's long-term interest to lie? He may think so as I'm zapping his nutsack, but I'm gonna be way harder on him if He misleads me.

There is no fairness in torture: pony up what I want and I may leave you be; convince me you truly know nuthin' and I may leave you be; lie to me and sure as hell I reattach the electric leads to your nutsack.

The progression for some folks here seems to be: 'never torture, but if you do, be fair about it'...a horseshit construct if there ever was one.

You are an idiot. If you are torturing people (which you are) then you are no better than the Inquisition. You are dragging us all back to the Middle Ages. You are no better than the islamic states. Actually you are worse, because you put yourself on a pedestal as being all about 'freedom' and enlightenment. At least muslim fundies fully admit they want to stay in the Middle Ages.

Wait Veggie, look at his Avatar, that's much further back in time than the "Middle Ages," HQ wants to be a "Cave Man." Or at least that's how he apparently sees himself.

"you put yourself on a pedestal as being all about 'freedom' and enlightenment"

Er, when did I ever drone on (here, or in any forum) about 'freedom' or 'enlightenment'?

You may be mistaking me for some other jackass.

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"If you are torturing people (which you are) then you are no better than the Inquisition."

Mebbe. If, however, I can secure the life of one precious to me by way of torturing someone, then -- fuck you -- that's exactly what I'll do.

If -- as my proxy -- the CIA can secure the lives of other Americans (a group which may include those precious to me) by way of torturing someone, then -- fuck you --that's exactly what I want them to do.