IC please clarify for us

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Walker
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Re: IC please clarify for us

Post by Walker »

phyllo wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2026 12:33 pm There is potential for all sorts of patterns to manifest in the universe. And the thinking beings can recognize patterns and assign special meanings to some of them.

But these patterns only exist when they have a physical manifestation.

The special patterns stand along with a multitude of others which have been mentally discarded or denigrated.

A "principle" is not some prefect absolute, but rather that something in a range which includes the 'anti-principle'.
Dark matter, dark energy, and principles are intangibles.

All three could be what prevents the universe and everyone in it from becoming unglued.

The dark side might be misnamed manifestations of anti-entropy not yet physically isolated into a recognizable form,
Although Shirley knows there's all kinds of reasons why that's just not possible, based on the known.

If the anti-entropy of the misnamed dark matter, energy, and principles could be isolated, buffered and bottled as an anti-aging agent, consumption would need to be heavily regulated and doled out by those who hold the keys to the kingdom of man.

(edited in homage to grammar)
Last edited by Walker on Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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(You may notice, IC, that I choose to continue to talk to you as if you were a normal, rational, good-faith conversationalist interested in ideas and contemporary culture. I have found this to be the only viable strategy on a quite dysfunctional forum often dominated by conversationalists with bizarre, unhealthy objectives and obsessions.

I am -- I think this is obvious to all by now -- the only really normal person on the forum, and for this reason a great deal of responsibility falls to me and weighs on my shoulders. I don't complain and I do not whimper!)

For the sake of conversation about Arjuna's vision of the 'Universal Form' of Krishna in the Gita, I thought to include an interesting commentary from Sri Aurobinodo's interpretation of the Bhagavad Gita (The Message of the Gita, 1938) The passage is from the 11th chapter. For those unfamiliar, the 'vision' is represented as if one were seeing the Supreme Being, as conceived by these seers, in all its operations and all at one time. There are some schools in India which take it literally, and others who take it on other planes and levels.

I will post it but cannot offer comments right now. I only offer my sincere blessing to all of you with the hope that, soon! you might show improvement and get (maybe a little) better...
This last cry of Arjuna indicates the double intention in the vision. This is the figure of the supreme and universal Being, this is he who forever creates, for Brahma the Creator is one of the Godheads seen in his body, he who keeps the world always in existence, for he is the guardian of the eternal laws, but who is always too destroying in order that he may new-create, who is Time, who is Death, who is Rudra the Dancer of the calm and awful dance, who is Kali with her garland of skulls trampling naked in battle and flecked with the blood of the slaughtered Titans, who is the cyclone and the fire and the earthquake and pain and famine and revolution and ruin and the swallowing ocean. And it is this last aspect of him which he puts forward at the moment. It is an aspect from which the mind in men willingly turns away and ostrich-like hides its head so that perchance, not seeing, it may not be seen by the Terrible. The weakness of the human heart wants only fair and comforting truths or in their absence pleasant fables; it will not have the truth in its entirety because there there is much that is not clear and pleasant and comfortable, but hard to understand and harder to bear.

To put away the responsibility for all that seems to us evil or terrible on the shoulders of a semi-omnipotent Devil, or to put it aside as part of Nature, making an unbridgeable opposition between world-nature and God-Nature, as if Nature were independent of God, or to throw the responsibility on man and his sins, as if he had a preponderant voice in the making of this world or could create anything against the will of God, are clumsily comfortable devices in which the religious thought of India has never taken refuge. We have to look courageously in the face of the reality and see that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being and that so he has made it. The torment of the couch of pain and evil on which we are racked is his touch as much as happiness and sweetness and pleasure. The discords of the worlds are God's discords and it is only by accepting and proceeding through them that we can arrive at the greater concords of his supreme harmony, the summits and thrilled vastnesses of his transcendent and his cosmic Ananda.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:17 pm And yet, again, not one example. Not one specific. Not one piece of evidence to make your case. If you were to provide such, they would only strengthen your case; and I think you must know that. So the conclusion is obvious: you don't because you can't. For you, Vedanta isn't at all "more developed," let alone "explanatorily powerful," than anything. In fact, you've "explained" nothing at all. Clearly, Vedanta is not imparting to you the wondrous insights you claim spring therefrom, because you can't even articulate one, to save your life.
Breathe, IC! Take deep, energy-filled, calming breaths. You are going to be OK!

I have tried to tell you that I am going to proceed as I see fit, and not as you, my wee Evangelical subject, direct. Come along for the ride! It is not all a terrifying roller-coaster ride through territories of frightening symbols! There will be pink cotton candy and maybe a big hug by the carnival's Fat Lady!
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Walker wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:25 pm
Dark matter, dark energy, and principles are intangibles.

All three could be what prevents the universe and everyone in it from becoming unglued.
Dark matter simply matter we haven't yet discovered how to see?

Might I remind you that the neutrino was a similar "ghost substance" for about 30 years from the time proposed to make mass/energy come out right till eventually shown to exiss. Now neutrinos interact with other matter by gravity and "weak" and so rarely actually interact. Suppose dark matter was something that only interacted by gravity and so really rarely interacted.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:37 pm This last cry of Arjuna indicates the double intention in the vision. This is the figure of the supreme and universal Being, this is he who forever creates, for Brahma the Creator is one of the Godheads seen in his body, he who keeps the world always in existence, for he is the guardian of the eternal laws, but who is always too destroying in order that he may new-create, who is Time, who is Death, who is Rudra the Dancer of the calm and awful dance, who is Kali with her garland of skulls trampling naked in battle and flecked with the blood of the slaughtered Titans, who is the cyclone and the fire and the earthquake and pain and famine and revolution and ruin and the swallowing ocean. And it is this last aspect of him which he puts forward at the moment. It is an aspect from which the mind in men willingly turns away and ostrich-like hides its head so that perchance, not seeing, it may not be seen by the Terrible. The weakness of the human heart wants only fair and comforting truths or in their absence pleasant fables; it will not have the truth in its entirety because there there is much that is not clear and pleasant and comfortable, but hard to understand and harder to bear.

To put away the responsibility for all that seems to us evil or terrible on the shoulders of a semi-omnipotent Devil, or to put it aside as part of Nature, making an unbridgeable opposition between world-nature and God-Nature, as if Nature were independent of God, or to throw the responsibility on man and his sins, as if he had a preponderant voice in the making of this world or could create anything against the will of God, are clumsily comfortable devices in which the religious thought of India has never taken refuge. We have to look courageously in the face of the reality and see that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being and that so he has made it. The torment of the couch of pain and evil on which we are racked is his touch as much as happiness and sweetness and pleasure. The discords of the worlds are God's discords and it is only by accepting and proceeding through them that we can arrive at the greater concords of his supreme harmony, the summits and thrilled vastnesses of his transcendent and his cosmic Ananda.
[/quote]
There's still nothing here. You haven't pointed out what you say is more "more developed" than anything else -- you would have to give the explicit contrast, of course. You would have to say, "Gita says X, but Torah says Y, and Gita is "more developed" because Z." Nothing of that kind appears here.

And you haven't shown that something is being better "explained" than anything else -- for which you would have to show that the Gita was being more realistic in some way, and that would require you to direct us to some feature of reality that it is "explaining" appropriately. So what confirms for you that "throwing responsibility upon man" is bad, wrong, unrealistic or whatever? After all, do you not "throw responsibility" upon all your interlocutors to agree with you or be regarded as benighted, when you demand that they believe you and insult them when they do not?

You pretty clearly do. So I don't think there's any evidence you believe the above. And there's no reason given why we should.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:45 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:17 pm And yet, again, not one example. Not one specific. Not one piece of evidence to make your case. If you were to provide such, they would only strengthen your case; and I think you must know that. So the conclusion is obvious: you don't because you can't. For you, Vedanta isn't at all "more developed," let alone "explanatorily powerful," than anything. In fact, you've "explained" nothing at all. Clearly, Vedanta is not imparting to you the wondrous insights you claim spring therefrom, because you can't even articulate one, to save your life.
Breathe, IC!
You are once again mistaken. I'm breathing fine. I'm just bored with your deflections, and that's hardly an inducement to hyperventilation. It's more an inducement to tedium.

I'm starting to think you're just trolling. Nobody's THAT silly.
Walker
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:37 pm I am -- I think this is obvious to all by now -- the only really normal person on the forum, and for this reason a great deal of responsibility falls to me and weighs on my shoulders. I don't complain and I do not whimper!)
:lol:

Certainly entertaining!

Speaking of literally …
In a universe created by God Beyond Limitations, The Holy Bible is the literal word of God.

This makes the totality of the Holy Bible inexplicable to humans limited by time, space, and binary comprehension that is a reaction to bilateral symmetry of form, and with limited access to the one mind ... however like treasures hidden in consciousness to be discovered when conditions are ripe (like the light bulb), folks are discovering the arbitrary nature of limitations all the time.
Walker
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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MikeNovack wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:49 pm
Walker wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:25 pm
Dark matter, dark energy, and principles are intangibles.

All three could be what prevents the universe and everyone in it from becoming unglued.
Dark matter simply matter we haven't yet discovered how to see?

Might I remind you that the neutrino was a similar "ghost substance" for about 30 years from the time proposed to make mass/energy come out right till eventually shown to exiss. Now neutrinos interact with other matter by gravity and "weak" and so rarely actually interact. Suppose dark matter was something that only interacted by gravity and so really rarely interacted.
Yeah, neutrinos, that's the ticket. The constant bombardment from subtle, energetic forces of entropy threading their way through the hosts of intelligence might be what weakens the glue that binds life to form, although biological effects of neutrinos might be detectable on a time scale significantly longer than an Anthony Fauci-funded beagle experiment.

:| :D

Poor beagles ... :(
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:53 pm There's still nothing here …
IC, get ahold of yourself! I will explain it once more! I am continuing with what I desire to focus on, and what you demand of me holds no interest!

It is only because you on various occasions have referred to the ‘terrible’ aspect of God as expressed in the 11th chapter of the Gita as being ‘divine tinged with the demonic’ that I thought to address it. It is an interesting topic I think.
After all, do you not "throw responsibility" upon all your interlocutors to agree with you or be regarded as benighted, when you demand that they believe you and insult them when they do not?
I’ll have you know that some of the smarter ones have 1) healed up to 96% and 2) gotten extremely rich 🤑 due to my stock recommendations!
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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This is the figure of the supreme and universal Being, this is he who forever creates, for Brahma the Creator is one of the Godheads seen in his body, he who keeps the world always in existence, for he is the guardian of the eternal laws, but who is always too destroying in order that he may new-create, who is Time, who is Death, who is Rudra the Dancer of the calm and awful dance, who is Kali with her garland of skulls trampling naked in battle and flecked with the blood of the slaughtered Titans, who is the cyclone and the fire and the earthquake and pain and famine and revolution and ruin and the swallowing ocean. And it is this last aspect of him which he puts forward at the moment. It is an aspect from which the mind in men willingly turns away and ostrich-like hides its head so that perchance, not seeing, it may not be seen by the Terrible. The weakness of the human heart wants only fair and comforting truths or in their absence pleasant fables; it will not have the truth in its entirety because there there is much that is not clear and pleasant and comfortable, but hard to understand and harder to bear.
See, what interests me in this is the shift that occurred as a result of the Death of God revelation. The 'storybook' version that the Old Testament presents (Genesis, etc.) simply became unbelievable as everyone knows. And in the late 1800s and the early 1900s -- I might say 'for good or for evil' -- other idea-currents were entertained and cultivated. Obviously, the influence of India and Eastern Thought generally on Europe had great influence. And it seems to be the case that 'we' are all outcomes of processes that extend from huge projects of re-definition or, on the other hand, a falling away from any definition at all. The 'mindlessness' in our present is pretty appalling.

When I read the above I am reminded of Hesse (Damian) and the notion of Abraxas. For the simple reason that when men again turned their eyes to the created world they could not any longer not see that it is a world where great goodness and great terribleness (or evil) is all mixed together. It seems to me that if one takes this seriously one cannot hide 'ostrich-like' from the fact that in so many ways we are in a dangerous, uncharted territory. And one of my chief observations -- certainly relevant to this forum where genuine, productive discussion should occur but never does or is deeply afflicted (!) -- is that the conditions of the time we are in produce inner disconnection leading, as I say, to intellectual neurosis.
To put away the responsibility for all that seems to us evil or terrible on the shoulders of a semi-omnipotent Devil, or to put it aside as part of Nature, making an unbridgeable opposition between world-nature and God-Nature, as if Nature were independent of God, or to throw the responsibility on man and his sins, as if he had a preponderant voice in the making of this world or could create anything against the will of God, are clumsily comfortable devices in which the religious thought of India has never taken refuge. We have to look courageously in the face of the reality and see that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being and that so he has made it. The torment of the couch of pain and evil on which we are racked is his touch as much as happiness and sweetness and pleasure. The discords of the worlds are God's discords and it is only by accepting and proceeding through them that we can arrive at the greater concords of his supreme harmony, the summits and thrilled vastnesses of his transcendent and his cosmic Ananda.
What attracts me here is the admonition that "We have to look courageously in the face of the reality and see that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being and that so he has made it". It changes the nature of a man's focus, it seems to me, to see things in these realistic and sober terms.

The other thing that interests me is: "The weakness of the human heart wants only fair and comforting truths or in their absence pleasant fables".

Finally, this seems the most interesting to me: [spiritual and rational weakness] "will not have the truth in its entirety because there there is much that is not clear and pleasant and comfortable, but hard to understand and harder to bear."

I see a larger admonition to understand 'reality' better, or maybe from a new position or outlook, and perhaps with a more complete explanatory vocabulary.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 4:23 pm ...what you demand of me holds no interest!
I didn't demand anything. I requested you use some logic. But I wasn't hopeful it would happen.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 4:43 pm What attracts me here is the admonition that "We have to look courageously in the face of the reality and see that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being and that so he has made it". It changes the nature of a man's focus, it seems to me, to see things in these realistic and sober terms.
It's of no moment that it "attracts you." Attraction is not logic. What matters is whether or not it's true. You call this "realistic" and "sober." Show that it is, if you can.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 2:53 pm ...you would have to show that the Gita was being more realistic in some way, and that would require you to direct us to some feature of reality that it is "explaining" appropriately. So what confirms for you that "throwing responsibility upon man" is bad, wrong, unrealistic or whatever?
Keep working, IC. You may well be onto something here and I think you need encouragement. What do you think is the more *realistic* attitude to take? Is it possible that a clearer 'explanation' of reality will help us? What 'reality' are you referring to? I wish to know more. Let it rip!
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 4:47 pm But I wasn't hopeful it would happen.
Is that what they call 'a self-fulfilling prophecy'?
Sri Aurobindo wrote:"We have to look courageously in the face of the reality and see that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being and that so he has made it".
Do you see this as a good thing to do, to undertake? Do you think it is courageous that a man see "that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being"? Or do you think that is a mistaken view?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IC please clarify for us

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2026 4:54 pm Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2026 4:43 pm
What attracts me here is the admonition that "We have to look courageously in the face of the reality and see that it is God and none else who has made this world in his being and that so he has made it". It changes the nature of a man's focus, it seems to me, to see things in these realistic and sober terms.
You call this "realistic" and "sober." Show that it is, if you can.
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