Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:02 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:54 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:50 pm
Actually, it's in the last few pages. You won't have to go far back. So have a look.

Okay. Then show me a subjective moral imperative, instead.

This one?

Pick it up at 364.

You mean the argument that objective morality is better than subjective morality, therefore objective morality is the case?

Just like:

Eternal youth is better than a lifespan of 75 years, therefore eternal youth is the case.
A world of constant happiness is better than a world filled with all kinds of suffering, therefore a world of constant happiness is the case.

and so on?

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:02 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:54 pm


This one?

Pick it up at 364.

You mean the argument that objective morality is better than subjective morality, therefore objective morality is the case?

No. Read.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:27 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:02 pm
Pick it up at 364.

You mean the argument that objective morality is better than subjective morality, therefore objective morality is the case?

No. Read.

I tire of these guessing games, just copy it or we're done here.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:28 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:27 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:12 pm
You mean the argument that objective morality is better than subjective morality, therefore objective morality is the case?

No. Read.

I tire of these guessing games, just copy it or we're done here.

I gave you the page. If you can't read, I can't help you. So I guess we're done here.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:20 pm
With infinite time we'll fix any shithole.

Shit happens, and what happens can never unhappen. And what apparently happens, never actually happened.

I fixed my broken garden shed last night in a dream, and when I awakened from the dream, the broken fixed shed no longer existed.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:37 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:28 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:27 pm
No. Read.

I tire of these guessing games, just copy it or we're done here.

I gave you the page. If you can't read, I can't help you. So I guess we're done here.

On that page we have:
"objective morality is better than subjective morality, therefore objective morality is the case"
and maybe your failed attempt to show that subjectivism is self-contradictory.

That is worlds apart from a potential best argument for objective morality.

The minimum we can ask of any belief is that it be at least consistent and sustainable on its own terms.

Of course, those here who embrace one or another existential rendition of objective morality are no less subjectivists. They are individual subjects who lived particular lives that put them in contact with one or another God or religious path. And on this path they experienced the comfort and the consolation of having found moral Commandments that "in their heads" they are convinced will bring them both immortality and salvation.

It's a belief that is "consistent and sustainable on its own terms" because they either define all the terms themselves or provide you with a Scripture that they claim is as far as anyone need go in demonstrating the existence of their God.

Subjectivism is not. It can't even clear the first hurdle of rational explanation. That should concern subjectivists: they can know for certain they're wrong, even if they don't consider such alternatives as moral objectivism or moral nihilism at all.

Of course, this being the Ethical Theory forum, they almost never deem it necessary to bring their conclusions down out of the spiritual clouds. Rational or irrational, moral or immoral in regard to what particular behaviors?

After all, the bottom line here is often Judgment Day. One or another rendition of Heaven and Hell. So, it's not enough to defend God and religion up in those spiritual clouds. Instead, most denominations have their own set of moral prescriptions and proscriptions. Do this and God approves. Do that and God doesn't.

But with all of these...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

...folks claiming to be the One True Path, how on Earth do mere mortals go about pinning down the real deal? If there even is a real deal at all.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:45 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:37 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:28 pm
I tire of these guessing games, just copy it or we're done here.

I gave you the page. If you can't read, I can't help you. So I guess we're done here.

On that page we have:
"objective morality is better than subjective morality, therefore objective morality is the case"

You don't have that. That's not what's there, despite you having used quotation marks. I never said any such thing.

You didn't read it at all, apparently, or didn't understand the argument. Either way...

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:31 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:45 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:37 pm
I gave you the page. If you can't read, I can't help you. So I guess we're done here.

On that page we have:
"objective morality is better than subjective morality, therefore objective morality is the case"

You don't have that. That's not what's there, despite you having used quotation marks. I never said any such thing.

You didn't read it at all, apparently, or didn't understand the argument. Either way...

Understandable that you don't like your argument summarized, as it shows it too clearly that it's not even a real argument just yet another sophistry.

You made a big fuss about having disproven subjectivism, so I said okay, present your best argument then. Don't give me this crap. Bring your A-game.

When IC's days are finally over and he stands there on Judgment day before Allah , he might say: "Well my son, all your life you worshipped a made-up false god. But there may yet be hope for you if you at least lived as a man of honesty, let's look at your.. life.. ugh.. ugh.. ehh.. OH MY GOD, to Hell with him! Now!"

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 7:41 pm Shit happens, and what happens can never unhappen. And what apparently happens, never actually happened.

I fixed my broken garden shed last night in a dream, and when I awakened from the dream, the broken fixed shed no longer existed.

Take your pills.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:33 am When IC's days are finally over and he stands there on Judgment day before Allah , he might say: "Well my son, all your life you worshipped a made-up false god. But there may yet be hope for you if you at least lived as a man of honesty, let's look at your.. life.. ugh.. ugh.. ehh.. OH MY GOD, to Hell with him! Now!"

Imagine you arrive and the dude has all the nametags pinned on his coat.

God
Yahweh
Allah
Thor
Zeus
...

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:08 am Imagine you arrive and the dude has all the nametags pinned on his coat.

God
Yahweh
Allah
Thor
Zeus
...

Then God is evil for having humans kill each other in his nameS.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:27 am Then God is evil for having humans kill each other in his nameS.

I agree. Given your moral superiority - why didn't you stop the killing?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:28 am

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:27 am Then God is evil for having humans kill each other in his nameS.

I agree. Given your moral superiority - why didn't you stop the killing?

Why expect moral superiority from an evil God?