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Re: IC please clarify for us

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2026 3:05 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Dubious wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2026 11:14 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2026 8:43 pm
As an example — and I am here thinking of The Grouch Dubious — it might become possible to actually talk about the notion, or the fact, of salvation.
Indeed, it can, but you're self-endorsed sense of superiority makes any such conversation or follow-up nearly impossible.

Salvation is a hugely inclusive word. It's nuances or customizations are applied on whatever deficiencies you feel need to be rectified or saved from. It can as easily refer to anything in this life as well as a supposed after-life. In effect, salvation requires context in which your simple mention of it becomes, once again, meaningless.
Wait, my sense of self-endorsed superiority?! I am the most humble person on the planet and certainly on this forum! Am I wrong?! I have been elected, as if by General Decree, to this my rôle and my word how gloriously I carry it out!

No??

What “context” would you, Dear Dubious, establish for a lovely and proper conversation on the topic of “salvation”? If you set up the dance floor perhaps a real pas-de-deux will ensue!

Re: IC please clarify for us

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2026 5:54 pm
by Immanuel Can
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2026 2:17 pm No IC, you pretend you are interested in discourse.
It would be convenient for you to believe that. Unfortunately, it's obviously just another excuse for your having no answer.
I do not evade any aspect of the ideas and conversations I feel are worthy.
How lovely. How imperious of you. What you mean is that you don't mind being pseudo-pedantic, but you don't want to have to justify anything you say.

Don't worry: we've got it.

But do you? Do you realize that the Gita/Vedanta/your brand of Western 'Hindu" Gnosticism isn't actually "explaining" anything? You've just revealed that to yourself, even if you won't admit it to us.

So why do you believe it?

Re: IC please clarify for us

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2026 6:01 pm
by Immanuel Can
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2026 2:46 pm You said that you regard the narrator of the Bhagavad Gita (the figure giving the narration is Krishna) and specifically that portion where the narrator describes his universal form, as being false and demonic, isn’t that right?
No, you're wrong. I said it was a blending of the "divine and the demonic"...or, to put it another way, the spiritual and the nihilistic.
...do you find any value, say, and any explanatory value,
You'll be surprised at my answer. And I'll answer just as soon as you answer my question: what do you find "incomparably better" and "explanatorily powerful" in Vedanta? Be specific, now.

Also, you'll be more likely to get an answer if you quote the previous conversation. I almost missed that you'd posted this.

Re: IC please clarify for us

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2026 8:22 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Sorry Old Bean. I refuse any cooperation when, as I perceive it (and you are infamous for on this forum) you resort to bad-faith game-playing. So if that is how you want it, that is the result you’ll wind up with.

Trust me here! I have every means to continue forward and to talk about what I desire.
IC wrote:I said it was a blending of the "divine and the demonic"...or, to put it another way, the spiritual and the nihilistic.
Here, you have misunderstood the gist of what is being communicated in the Twelfth chapter. You have read it with an a priori assumption that it communicates a nihilistic view. Thus, your prejudice is revealed.

I think most with even superficial familiarity with the schools of thought of the Indian subcontinent become quickly aware it (this school of thought) sees the phenomenal world as unstable and ultra-perishable — not to be depended on I might say. So the largest thrust in it is toward a realization of that which it defines as imperishable and, naturally, eternal. I suppose that someone viewing that mode of thought from a superficial perspective might interpret the communicated gist as “nihilistic” since there is a note of negation of the instability of the world, so seen, so described.
1. Philosophy The doctrine that nothing actually exists or that existence or values are meaningless.
2. Relentless negativity or cynicism suggesting an absence of values or beliefs
…but such an imposed interpretation cannot stand under any scrutiny.

Therefore here, and throughout the Bhagavad Gita, and in Vedanta, the larger emphasis is on self-realization. Or the realization of the Self. In this, it proposes and develops methodologies and practices useful for one interested in (drawn to) self-development and realization. In this area it is far more clear, and also aware of the variations in human types and (in the philosophy) offers and explains different, say, practical approaches for varied individuals.

And it is in this level of clarity and by way of a more developed and intricate vocabulary that it succeeds in communicating metaphysical ideas more successfully than, for example, in much but not all Christian thought.

What is interesting to consider — for you perhaps — would be What if Yahweh were to reveal himself to you? Is God real for you? Or really an abstraction you refer to? You never talk about any experience of God. Why is this?

And if the God you refer to were to reveal himself, what would that be like? Have you had any similar experience?

You see, this is what the character in the narrative, Arjuna, asks Krishna (presented as the Supreme Lord) to reveal to him. And the Vision is, naturally, laden with symbols, since the reader is reading a verbal description.

In Vedantic thought, at least in a sense, the entire Creation is part-and-parcel of Divinity. Everything is of divine substance and origin. And everything in that sense represents God and expresses God. But there certainly is awareness that our World, our location in a scale, is as marvelous and amazing as it is terrifying and frightful. Universes exploding, colliding: its a mad-house. So, the totality of God, in the vision in that chapter, expresses these views or stances vis-a-vis The Manifest World.

My dear Exasperating Child! You are such a pain in the ass! But — you are perfect for all this!

Re: IC please clarify for us

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2026 8:31 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
(I have taken the liberty of transferring US$2,250.00 from your account as I guess a kind of ‘tip’ for my kindness in explaining things to you. Thank you! And let me know if you have other questions or concerns).

Re: IC please clarify for us

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2026 8:43 pm
by FlashDangerpants
Dubious wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2026 2:08 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2026 11:27 am <Series of self-aggrandising pretentious burblings>
Fine! I'll leave you to communicate with the main person who's far more intellectually capable than me. Oh yes, and far less boring.
This site has now entered its final form prior to inevitable collapse, and sadly that turns out to be modelled on the Human Centipede series, with Immanuel Can at its head, and everything else here being about him for some reason.

Mister Jacobi has clearly decided that his best option is to pursue the most prestigious location available, the head of the table in the human centipede as it were. Like an anal remora, he attaches himself to the juiciest available host and thus finds himself elevated to his seat of honour, which happens to be mister Can's seat of dishonour.

But it doesn't matter. If you google "philosophy forum" this site just doesn't even appear. That means it holds no value for the Svetlanas who used to use PN to spread misinformation, it no longer offers any amplification via search engine optimisation, so it's not worth coming here to post links anymore. And it can longer easily be found by the next generation of delusionally disordered/NPD/ASD "greatest philosopher ever" types that habituated it in the past. You'll maybe get a nibble from JohnDoe or Advocate for old time's sake, but the love is gone really and no new suitors will turn up.

So the best thing to do really is get in line. But don't try to elbow your way ahead of Jacobi, the prize for that is indescribably awful.

Re: IC please clarify for us

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2026 9:44 pm
by Immanuel Can
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2026 8:22 pm Sorry Old Bean. I refuse any cooperation when, as I perceive it (and you are infamous for on this forum) you resort to bad-faith game-playing.
And yet, you could defeat me publicly if you could answer.

The truth is, you can't.
Therefore here, and throughout the Bhagavad Gita, and in Vedanta, the larger emphasis is on self-realization. Or the realization of the Self. In this, it proposes and develops methodologies and practices useful for one interested in (drawn to) self-development and realization. In this area it is far more clear, and also aware of the variations in human types and (in the philosophy) offers and explains different, say, practical approaches for varied individuals.
Prove this. Show that the Gita does this.
In Vedantic thought, at least in a sense, the entire Creation is part-and-parcel of Divinity. Everything is of divine substance and origin.
Yes, yes...we've heard all this before. And reality is illusion, and desire is the problem, and soul-extinction is the goal, and reincarnation is the postponement of disproving. Yes, we've heard it. Nothing new, nothing interesting, and nothing remotely scientific in this.

We know the earth is not eternal. We know time is linear, not cyclical. The cosmology required for these various Eastern Mysticisms is simply contradicted by the verifiable facts. Nothing you've said is even challenging...it could have come out of a primer on Eastern Mysticism.

Yet your contention is that Vedanta is "incomparably" superior? From what perspective is this supposed to be evident?