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Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:57 am
by Immanuel Can
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:16 pm Response to Immanuel Can’s post dated: Thu Nov. 4, 2021
Why, if believers acknowledge that there is one God, though worshiped in different ways in different times and climes, it becomes a matter always of my God is better than your God.
Simple. Even among people who believe in one God, the "God" described in their creed is often so different from other descriptions of the Supreme Being that there is no possibility the people are even talking about the same entity. You will find, for example, that the Jewish God is not at all the "god" of the Islamists. And Krisha is a totally different concept again, and not compatible with any of the former.
...are there two different states of consciousness one for the East and one for the West?...
If there's one God, it's the same God in both the East and West. But either the East or the West has their story wrong: because they don't believe in the same conception of "God."
If there is one God why would one culture’s liberated Master be less liberated than another culture’s liberated Master?
"Liberated master?" That's not even a concept that occurs in Judaism or Christianity.
That must be puzzling to atheists
Being "puzzling to Atheists" is no real mark against anything. There's a great deal that fits that description.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:07 am
by Age
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm Alex,

There are ideas and experiences which are objectively superior, yeah?

An afternoon in the sun, gettin' a little exercise, is objectively superior, as experience, to spendin' an afternoon in a dark bar drinkin' oneself blind, yeah? In the former, one is inured; in the latter, one is injured.
What does 'inured' mean, to you?

Also, one could obtain or increase their chances of obtaining skin cancer in the former, which they would not in the latter. As well as one might obtain a future partner in the latter, and then go on to produce a child who works out how to create a Truly peaceful world for EVERY one, which would not have happened in the former. So, 'objectively superior' here would be based on ALL of the variables, of which you are NOT YET aware of.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm That each man's life, liberty, and property is his own is objectively superior, as idea, to each man's life, liberty, and property belong to another, yeah?
When will you ever WAKE UP to the Fact that this is what causes some of the most Wrong in the world, of which you do, and contribute to, but STILL do not even KNOW nor even recognize YET?
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm In the first, man is free; in the second, man is a slave.
'you', "henry quirk", are a slave. But STILL do not even KNOW nor recognize this YET.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm Can we say there are modes of livin' and thinkin' that objectively superior to others?
YES.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm If so: what are the elements of these modes?
What we agree with and accept, OBVIOUSLY.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:45 am
by Age
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:49 pm 1.Augment happiness and pleasure for self or others.
2.Diminish pain and suffering for oneself or others.
3. Following religious or secular laws.
4. Improving one's moral character.
5.Following a secular or religious leader.
6. Harmonising with nature.
7. Creating and progressing.
8. Because I say so and I have the power to dictate what is right or wrong.
9. Tending to support life.

Which criterion supports your claim that "there are modes of livin' and thinkin' that objectively superior to others?"


First, I have to lay out what I believe an objectively superior mode of thinkin' and livin' is (and I have to do that without generatin' another wall of text).

An objectively superior livin' and thinkin' extends out from one being, to the degree possible, self-responsible (being moral, living within the constraints of conscience and reason), self-reliant (capable of meetin' the day's trials head-on), and self-directing (choosin', thru reason and conscience, how to discharge yourself in the world; reining in impulse and appetite [self de-liberation & -restraint]).

Being moral: as I reckon it, you start with the recognition the other guy's life, liberty, and property are his just as your life, liberty, and property are yours.
Well you OBVIOUSLY have NO recognition of this.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:49 pm You ought not monkey around with his any more than he ought to yours. This recognition, as it makes certain things between and among men impermissible, encourages cooperation and a particular competition. Trade instead of tyranny, negotiation instead of thievery, and acceptin' no as the answer when no trade can be had or negotiation dead-ends. And this recognition encourages compassion. Lendin' an assist to the truly needy cuz if not for the Creator's grace, that fella could be me.
Your CONTRADICTIONS are BLINDING.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:49 pm As to what of your list applies...

Probably only #9 as it's written. The others might apply too if I restructured them, but that would defeat the purpose of your question, which I don't wanna do.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:46 am
by Age
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:28 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm Can we say there are modes of livin' and thinkin' that objectively superior to others?
If we can't, then we can't say that living as a humanitarian or a cancer surgeon is any better than living as a drug abuser or a serial killer.
I agree.
Do you two even agree on what 'objectively' is?

If yes, then what is 'objectively'?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:48 am
by Age
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:53 am For the sake of a further definition, I quote here Pierre Krebs who wrote Fighting for the Essence:

"...our task is to oppose the egalitarian ethos and egalitarian socio-economic thinking with a world-view based on differentiation: this means an ethic and a socio-economic theory which respects the right to be different. We want to create the system of values and attitudes necessary for gaining control of cultural power. Our strategy is dictated neither by the immediate contingencies of reality nor the superficial upheavals of political life. We are not interested in political factions but in attitudes to life... What motivates us and what we are striving for does cannot be accommodated within the activities of a political party, but - and we insist on this point - solely within the framework of a metapolitical, exclusively cultural project. A programme which sets out once again to make us conscious of our identity through awakening the memory of our future, as it were. In this way we aim to prepare the ground for what is to come... The tragedy of the contemporary world is the tragedy of disloyalty: the uprooting of every culture, estrangement from our true natures, the atomization of man, the levelling of values, the uniformity of life. A critical and exhaustive engagement with modern knowledge - from philosophy to ethology, from anthropology to sociology, from the natural sciences to history and educational theory - if carried out with the appropriate intellectual rigour and sound empirical methodology, can only contribute to throwing light on the general confusion of the world."
That's interesting -- it is expressed artfully -- and I can see some glimmers in facets of truth. Yet, it reminds me of how man can keep re-defining, wrestling, and striving for control in one direction or another. Just more and more of doing this, always thinking it will fix things or lead to the right place. No apparent awareness or acknowledgement of balance or of any value that exists in other views. Rather, wipe it clean... re-write it... own it... control it. Same kind of thinking that has created our world.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:53 am If that is not a proper goal, what other goal would you propose?
Learn to SEE without agenda. Notice how dividing everything and everyone into 'sides' to blame and war against, only perpetuates imbalance. Observe the creations of ego, and how they are imposed on everything else.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:53 am You seem to say that ‘alignment’ is possible (it is suggested as possible). When aligned what do people do?
I was thinking in terms of being more aligned with all-of-life that we are a part of, rather than imposing noise and blind will onto small (partially-seen) parts of it. Perhaps we are more like noisy monkeys running around in a vibrant garden that we don't seem to recognize or understand. What would it take for such minds to 'notice' more, rather than 'imposing' more?
Stop BELIEVING the stuff that you do, and start being Truly Open and Honest while seriously Wanting to change, for the better.

By doing just that then you will NOTICE far more.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:53 amWhat I would ask is if you have succeeded in defining what your proposition is?
Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you think a particular structure is required?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:53 amIf it is true that you hope to move beyond arriving at tangible, practicable answers (I modify to a degree what you wrote), what is your hoped for object? What does that look like?
More clarity beyond agenda and ego. More capability beyond agenda and ego. More clarity and capability through more balance and connection with all-of-life.

I am speaking of what I already experience at times, with extraordinary results being manifested, as many other people also experience for themselves. The current implications (for me) are of a naturally connected and synchronistic potential that human beings have access to. Sort of like a different channel we can tune to -- less 'talk radio' :lol: -- more in-depth insight, downloaded in an instant.
WHY say, "access to", when 'you' are actually a part of 'It'.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm It has changed the way I think about everything. It is not of control or 'the will'. Rather it seems available via clear intention -- we can't fake that! (As opposed to 'muddled imposing' which is a human mess that slogs around in limitation. :lol: ) Of course, we (humankind) are going through what we are going through for LOTS of reasons.
And, when you are in tune or FULLY attuned, then you will KNOW ALL of those reasons.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm We can dance or drag ourselves through that however we want, or think we must, or feel helpless to avoid. But there is MORE to see, realize, tap into -- and it only makes sense that we cannot do so if we are adamantly pushing and identified with an agenda.
One of the very reasons WHY you still have far more to NOTICE, SEE, and KNOW "lacewing" is because you are continually 'trying to' push your own identified agenda.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm What might we experience if we got 'clear' of what we are buried in?
What you WILL experience is thee ACTUAL Truth of things. As I keep informing you.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm Can we even fathom being beyond that?
Can you even fathom being beyond that?
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:38 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:53 am What’s your opinion of Camille Paglia? She has a poignant quote I thought to include here, but it is a bit sharp.
I am not familiar with her. I'm interested in seeing the quote you thought of sharing.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:05 pm
by Belinda
Age wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:55 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:19 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote:
-------in reality, and in general, no person or people live in relation to an infinite array of possibilities. They usually live within the limits and parameters of specific views.
That's a static view of how people live. People really live dynamically from past to future, even towards the most banal of everyday activities . Cultures evolve. True, the natal culture exerts its inertia even during the age of individualism.
Living dynamically from past to future involves learning, creativity, and ability to accept that cognitive dissonance spurs one to create; so evolves a culture that holds the hearts and minds of the people who are born into it.

Besides cultural evolution there is also revolution which is caused by some great lop-sidedness of power relations. Revolution is closely linked to reformation. Reformation including by individuals like Jesus of Nazareth, Martin Luther, and several scientific or technological giants
What I observed here is "alexis jacobi" just saying that "in general" (meaning mostly or usually) persons or people do not live in relation to an infinite array of possibilities (but rather they live within an array of possibilities, which they have become accustomed to and used to).
I regret that I did not sufficiently endorse AJ's point about the inertia of social reality, a point with which I do agree.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:10 pm
by Age
Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:05 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:55 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:19 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote:



That's a static view of how people live. People really live dynamically from past to future, even towards the most banal of everyday activities . Cultures evolve. True, the natal culture exerts its inertia even during the age of individualism.
Living dynamically from past to future involves learning, creativity, and ability to accept that cognitive dissonance spurs one to create; so evolves a culture that holds the hearts and minds of the people who are born into it.

Besides cultural evolution there is also revolution which is caused by some great lop-sidedness of power relations. Revolution is closely linked to reformation. Reformation including by individuals like Jesus of Nazareth, Martin Luther, and several scientific or technological giants
What I observed here is "alexis jacobi" just saying that "in general" (meaning mostly or usually) persons or people do not live in relation to an infinite array of possibilities (but rather they live within an array of possibilities, which they have become accustomed to and used to).
I regret that I did not sufficiently endorse AJ's point about the inertia of social reality, a point with which I do agree.
Okay, thank you for the clarity here.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:15 pm
by Age
henry quirk wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:28 pm Lace,

You wrote...

Notice how dividing everything and everyone into 'sides' to blame and war against, only perpetuates imbalance.

Are there any principles worth dyin' for?
There are NO principles 'worth' dying for. But there are principles, which some do get killed over or for.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:17 pm
by Age
owl of Minerva wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:10 pm Belinda wrote:
I did not say Jesus Christ I said Jesus.

Immanuel Can wrote:
That's like saying, "I did not say 'Queen Elizabeth'; I said 'Lizzie.'"
But worse.

…………………………………………………………………

Owl of Minerva response:

The name Jesus refers to his humanity. The Christ refers to his consciousness. Similar to Krishna in the Hindu religion. As a human ego and form Jesus referred to himself as the son of man. As Christ consciousness; one with the Intelligence of God in nature and beyond; Cosmic consciousness, he referred to himself as the son of God. The son of man Jesus could be crucified, the son of God, Christ consciousness could not be. I am surprised Christians do not know that. It is elemental.
This is a GREAT point here.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:19 pm
by Age
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:09 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:28 pm Lace,

You wrote...

Notice how dividing everything and everyone into 'sides' to blame and war against, only perpetuates imbalance.

Are there any principles worth dyin' for?
Why are you talking to me, Henry? You rudely ignored my last post to you, claiming that you weren't talking to me. I am happy to give you genuine answers to your questions, IF you'll do likewise for me! Your stubborn, evasive, manic games are ruining your credibility... (apparently) with a lot of people. If you really want to demonstrate other ideas that you think people aren't considering fully enough, stop being a dumb dick -- nobody is going to listen to a dumb dick! I'm willing to consider other points of view when they're delivered thoughtfully rather than arrogantly and hatefully.
"Arrogantly and hatefully" are just your perceptions and projections.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:09 pm If you want to discuss the quotes above, please extend yourself FIRST by acknowledging/responding to what I said. I am not here just to answer your random questions and then be dismissed when you don't want to respond to me.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:24 pm
by Age
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:23 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:10 pm The name Jesus refers to his humanity. The Christ refers to his consciousness.
You've been misinformed, I fear. "Christ" means "anointed One," which is identical with the Jewish synonym "Messiah." You can find that out with any simple Greek concordance. Or here, with something even as ordinary as Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_(title)

Whoever told you the wrong thing was trying to make something fit his narrative, not explaining the word itself.
And EVERY time you tell the wrong thing "immanuel can" are you 'trying to' make something fit your narrative also?

Or, do you NOT recognize and notice ALL of the MANY times that you tell us wrong things?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:34 pm
by Age
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 am Lace wrote, up-thread...

Notice how dividing everything and everyone into 'sides' to blame and war against, only perpetuates imbalance.

My question, inspired by her comment: Are there any principles worth dyin' for?

Up-thread Alexis writes...

All peoples attempt and I think will always attempt to develop a metaphysical sense of the world in which they find themselves. When one examines different metaphysical systems one sees pretty clearly that this is so. We have to define the world. And our definition of the world (existence, our being here, life, awareness) will then inevitably bring forth a response, or an answer, in what is necessary to do, in how it is necessary to live. One way or the other we will define a metaphysics.

I agree. We have to define the world. We're driven to it. Such defining orders the world for us. This ordering is crucial for us, so we must take care this ordering is accurate, that it aligns with what is (what is true).
This ordering is crucial for what, EXACTLY?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 am Some work to recognize truth (what is) and others are happy to make stuff up.
While some find it extremely SIMPLE and EASY to just recognize and SEE what IS thee ACTUAL Truth of things, almost instantaneously.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 am The first, the truth, is principle, The second, made-up stuff, are stories. Some times truth and stories overlap and in doing so are both enriched: truth is made more accessible and stories are grounded.

The modern problem: all truth has been absorbed by bad stories and where such assimilation isn't possible truth is cast out. Truth is mere element of story (when it's present) not the undergirding of story (as it should be).
Is this your story?

Because NOT all truth has been absorbed by bad stories. Or, what is actually thee Truth is NOT absorbed by bad stories to EVERY one.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 am My question Are there any principles worth dyin' for? points in the direction of this problem.
But what you wrote above is NOT an actual 'problem'.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 am No sane man will die for a story,
But 'you', human beings, on occasions, do kill each "other" over stories, made up or actually True.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 am but folks will die defending or preserving the truth, the principles found in some stories, or better yet, for the naked, unadorned principle.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:29 pm
by henry quirk
Age,

I wrote: Being moral: as I reckon it, you start with the recognition the other guy's life, liberty, and property are his just as your life, liberty, and property are yours.

Your assessment: Well you OBVIOUSLY have NO recognition of this.

Would you explain your assessment?


I wrote: You ought not monkey around with his any more than he ought to yours. This recognition, as it makes certain things between and among men impermissible, encourages cooperation and a particular competition. Trade instead of tyranny, negotiation instead of thievery, and acceptin' no as the answer when no trade can be had or negotiation dead-ends. And this recognition encourages compassion. Lendin' an assist to the truly needy cuz if not for the Creator's grace, that fella could be me.

You assessed: Your CONTRADICTIONS are BLINDING.

Would you explain your assessment?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:40 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:05 pmI regret that I did not sufficiently endorse AJ's point about the inertia of social reality, a point with which I do agree.
"Inertia is the tendency of an object to continue in the state of rest or of uniform motion. The object resists any change in its state of motion or rest."
Perhaps it will serve us to examine this issue more closely. I want to recall here your notion of dynamism. And I also want to recall LaceWing's belief that (I have to paraphrase which is, of course, interpretation applied) when you or I present a set idea, or attempt to define a 'truth', that it is always possible that a) there is something *more* beyond that and thus what is true cannot be considered to be absolutely true, and b) to ponder on this 'something more', and to become open to seeing things in 'new ways', is some part of the dynamism and evolution of which you speak.

I am interested in defining certain aspects of our present time and our present situation. But simultaneously, and this has gone on for years now, instead of forging forward into territories of the ever-opening, the ever-new, the ever-shifting, the ever-evolving, I made a choice when I read certain conservative philosophers (Richard Weaver was definitely one) to consider the notion of The Eternal Constant. It is a Platonic Idea obviously that the mutability and constant-shifting nature of Reality is contradicted or opposed by something that must be eternally constant. So Being is opposed to Becoming.

So therefore, if someone proposes moving back toward things that are constant -- I use the terms of cultural renovation, renewal, re-grounding -- the idea is that there are things which are eternal and constant, and that upon those *things* (ideas, beliefs, feelings, understandings) it is possible to build. Because, logically, you cannot build on an ever-changing, no-constant, ever-shifting ground. Yet we live, obviously, in a mutable world.

So what is it that is the Constant Thing that is sought after?

But let's examine the notion of 'anomie' more closely. Let us consider what happens in the psychology of a person when, say, all the stable ground under that person has been undermined (let's take the example to the extreme). So then there is nothing solid to be *believed in*. Everything that very recently was 'solid' now becomes un-solid. Everything is doubted. At the same time the social hierarchies, and the hierarchies within knowledge, within institutions, within valuation, are confronted and doubted. The very idea of 'authority' is brought into question. And then -- it proceeds logically, doesn't it? -- the notion of 'metaphysical solidities' must necessarily also be undermined.

It seems to me that once we have noticed what is happening, if indeed we can gain the perspective to actually see it, we can then recognize that we have been acted upon by idea-forces which have, consciously though perhaps also incidentally, acted upon us in a deliberate effort to undermine the solidities within us. Now why does this happen? Or put another way what is the function or the utility of undermining the solidities on which the individual depended (or depends)?

I think the answer is to render that individual malleable. The culture of propaganda needs to do this, but so does the related social science of advertising and public relations. The role of advertising is, in a way, to weaken the individual's argument against buying the given article. The individual -- the strong and resilient individual -- is the object that must be defeated and overcome by the sophistry and rhetoric of the advertising effort, isn't that right?

Political propaganda and even of course (or perhaps especially) the distortions of religious indoctrination (as for example in the mega-churches where 'conversions' are sought through dubious means and the individual is also undermined and overcome)(as opposed to spiritual processes that transform the individual in ways we recognize as positive and necessary -- as 'good' -- which come about through social and cultural paideia).

Moving very quickly and jerkily forward -- what sort of individual remains in our present? Disjointed, separated, atomized, uncertain, in constant existential doubt, non-believing because all is 'relative' and one thing is just as valid as any other thing, we see persons whose biological sex (which must be seen as a primary solidity) cannot even be believed in any longer. So the individual, according to the narrative I attempt to present here, is thus removed from the possibility of having a foundation! No foundation remains. Not within her- or himself, not in the political world, not in the sociological world, but primarily not in the *world* of being. That individual has been knocked off his foundation -- and knocked off, so it is said, in the name of what is true! (That there are no solidities, that there should not exist hierarchies, that all values are relative, that one 'belief' is equal to any other belief and all must be accepted as equal and perhaps (somehow) equally entertained.

Now what happens to that individual? I would say that that individual 'goes crazy'. Becomes susceptible to 'hysteria'. Becomes, literally, ungrounded within her- and himself, unable to find a 'constant home'. It is within this sort of social and cultural situation that people become *suggestible* to all sorts of different ideas. Or is it more feelings?

So in my view the object of 'seeking solidities' (within Occidental paideia, my preferred term), and also within a solid spiritual/philosophical practice that is as profoundly related to our own "Occidental traditions", is not a false-object, though it may be an endeavor involving reaction -- reaction against the too-much-shifting of a world that has become unmoored.

We have to face, in my view, that the process I describe (of return, of seeking solidities, of rejecting radical trends) is similar to, say, the Interwar Period (the 1920s and 1930s) in which fascistic trends manifested themselves. Fascism is 'reactive' and, I think, usually involves similar notions of return to what is solid, return to what can be believed in, and return to what people can agree on as 'sane living'.

But it becomes highly contaminated, and ultra-dangerous, when the focus becomes the State or when the State takes over the 'reaction-process'. But consider that a well-disciplined spiritual life is, in its way, a form of self-chosen reaction. Taking oneself in hand, disciplining oneself, is sort of 'self-fascism'.

The object of 'recovery of the self' however is something uniquely personal and interior. It leads or should lead to a well-grounded individual capable of seeing and acting properly, maturely, civically, responsibly, but also to a person with the capacity and the interest in acting ethically.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:18 pm
by Belinda
Age wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:17 pm
owl of Minerva wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:10 pm Belinda wrote:
I did not say Jesus Christ I said Jesus.

Immanuel Can wrote:
That's like saying, "I did not say 'Queen Elizabeth'; I said 'Lizzie.'"
But worse.

…………………………………………………………………

Owl of Minerva response:

The name Jesus refers to his humanity. The Christ refers to his consciousness. Similar to Krishna in the Hindu religion. As a human ego and form Jesus referred to himself as the son of man. As Christ consciousness; one with the Intelligence of God in nature and beyond; Cosmic consciousness, he referred to himself as the son of God. The son of man Jesus could be crucified, the son of God, Christ consciousness could not be. I am surprised Christians do not know that. It is elemental.
This is a GREAT point here.
It is a great point! And I agree with Owl of Minerva it's surprising that Christians do not know it.