Philosophy Now Forum

Seleucus wrote:It didn't? I'd say internment has been extremely successful historically. ...

Where? didn't work in Northern Ireland and doesn't seem to be doing the Israelis much good.

Far more humane than transportation or ethnic cleansing.

By and large those you intern haven't done anything and it generally just drives people toward the terrorist cause.

Just doing a little reading, British interned 1500 Irish. Meanwhile it is suggested 3000 are involved in active Islamic plots in the UK plus another 23,000 connected. Getting these 25,000 people out of the milieu will definitely make a huge difference to the safety of Britons. Secondarily but in the long run more important will be reducing the spread of Islamism in the culture and make a huge deterrent statement.

You do know that in the UK the rough total of the non-white British is 13% and those who claim Islam as their religion about 4% don't you? Hardly a spread.

Out side the UK, drones have killed only about 3000 Islamists in 10 years, this program should be significantly expanded.

Should it? Well be prepared for more stabbings then. We've killed tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people in the ME in the last couple of decades and things don't seem to be getting any better.

No. They need to be met at the military level. There are important reasons for this as far as the concept of a state goes: insiders are punished and trained or at least treated to a duty of care, but outsiders are combatants and killed without questions in war, without trial and other processes afforded to nationals.

War is between nations. Stop bombing and killing in others nations and leave them to get on with killing themselves then if they become a state we can declare war upon them and you can have all the killing you appear to wish for.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:58 amIs it more cowardly to stab unarmed people knowing you're going to get shot in the end or drop drone strikes on them and the go home for a McDonalds?

Intentionally attacking random innocents for the purpose of advancing a world wide Islamic caliphate and tactical strikes against militants in service of the values of Western civilization are not even comparable.

Seleucus wrote:One important difference is the number of attacks happening in 2017. Right wingers=1 per 3 years. Islam=1 per 5 hours. Another important difference if you are a White conservative Westerner is Islam is attacking you, while Right wingers are ostensibly acting for you.

Well since I'm not a white conservative westerner those right-wingers can go fuck 'emselves then. America kills vastly more of themselves through cars and guns than any terrorist attacks and the chances of me dying in a terrorist attack in the UK compared to all the other ways I could go is nearly zero.

Seleucus wrote:Intentionally attacking random innocents for the purpose of advancing a world wide Islamic caliphate and tactical strikes against militants in service of the values of Western civilization are not even comparable.

Are you taking the piss? We have not been in the ME for the values of Western civilization but for Oil and the Great Game. If these values are cluster-bombs, depleted uranium munitions and mass destruction of peoples lives and livelihoods then we are spreading it very well and those we are doing it to appear to be learning the lessons well.

Seleucus wrote:In my view it is a corruption of the sun and moon icon of ancient Sumer. The Vergina Sun, or Macedonian Sun, in my opinion, has the same point of origin. Like obelisks, these ancient symbols of power were co-opted by others after them who sometimes misunderstood their original meaning and use.

Much like Christianity then.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:09 am

Seleucus wrote:It didn't? I'd say internment has been extremely successful historically. ...

Where? didn't work in Northern Ireland and doesn;t seem to be doing the Israelis much good.

Either: It's preventing their country from being overrun by extremists and saving tens of thousands of Israeli lives. What more would count as success?

Or: Where are the internment camps in Israel?

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:09 am

Far more humane than transportation or ethnic cleansing.

By and large those you intern haven't done anything and it generally just drives people toward the terrorist cause.

Yes, and those who are quarenteened haven't done anything wrong either. It's a hard but necessary choice to make for the public good.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:09 am

Out side the UK, drones have killed only about 3000 Islamists in 10 years, this program should be significantly expanded.

Should it? Well be prepared for more stabbings then. We've killed tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people in the ME in the last couple of decades and things don't seem to be getting any better.

Failure to follow through on commitments. We need more and deeper involvement, not less.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:09 am

No. They need to be met at the military level. There are important reasons for this as far as the concept of a state goes: insiders are punished and trained or at least treated to a duty of care, but outsiders are combatants and killed without questions in war, without trial and other processes afforded to nationals.

War is between nations. Stop bombing and killing in others nations and leave them to get on with killing themselves then if they become a state we can declare war upon them and you can have all the killing you appear to wish for.

This point like most of them we are here addressing are very big topics that deserve much more careful investigation. Maybe tomorrow I have some time I'll look into one of these issues more carefully and attempt a worthwhile rely.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:15 am

Seleucus wrote:Intentionally attacking random innocents for the purpose of advancing a world wide Islamic caliphate and tactical strikes against militants in service of the values of Western civilization are not even comparable.

Are you taking the piss? We have not been in the ME for the values of Western civilization but for Oil and the Great Game. If these values are cluster-bombs, depleted uranium munitions and mass destruction of peoples lives and livelihoods then we are spreading it very well and those we are doing it to appear to be learning the lessons well.

This will be the point I want to get back to you about maybe later in the week...

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:16 am

Seleucus wrote:In my view it is a corruption of the sun and moon icon of ancient Sumer. The Vergina Sun, or Macedonian Sun, in my opinion, has the same point of origin. Like obelisks, these ancient symbols of power were co-opted by others after them who sometimes misunderstood their original meaning and use.

Much like Christianity then.

I don't see much connection to Christianity; I expect the Macedonians got the symbol from the Thracians who were under Persian control as Macedon came up in the world. The Muslims could have got it via the Parthians who also used the Sun and Moon symbol? It's just my conjecture. It's maybe even lke the two horned man who is everywhere from early Indo-European to Cyrus to Alexander to the Qur'an.

Seleucus wrote:Either: It's preventing their country from being overrun by extremists and saving tens of thousands of Israeli lives. What more would count as success? ...

A two state settlement.

Or: Where are the internment camps in Israel?

They are called prisons over there. Oh! And the Gaza strip.

Arising_uk wrote:Yes, and those who are quarenteened haven't done anything wrong either. It's a hard but necessary choice to make for the public good.

Ah! The 'public good' and 'hard choices', always a nice cover for the dismantling of democracy and the rule of law. You are Mao's dream.

Arising_uk wrote:Failure to follow through on commitments. We need more and deeper involvement, not less.

Why? Hasn't seemed to have worked so far. If you want to get deeper involved try doing what the radical islamists are doing on the ground for the poor and provide a social welfare system with free schools and health care.

Seleucus wrote:I don't see much connection to Christianity; ...

It built itself upon the back of the pagan festivals by co-opting them and their holy sites.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:23 am

Seleucus wrote:Either: It's preventing their country from being overrun by extremists and saving tens of thousands of Israeli lives. What more would count as success? ...

A two state settlement.

Or: Where are the internment camps in Israel?

They are called prisons over there. Oh! And the Gaza strip.

Neither are internment camps in the sense they were used by British in Malaysia or Kenya.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:23 am

Yes, and those who are quarenteened haven't done anything wrong either. It's a hard but necessary choice to make for the public good.

Ah! The 'public good' and 'hard choices', always a nice cover for the dismantling of democracy and the rule of law. You are Mao's dream.

Point taken, but unfortunately sometimes quarantine and internment are choices that get made when significant dangers present. There isn't a formula for when its justified, it's a risk and executive decision.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:23 am

Failure to follow through on commitments. We need more and deeper involvement, not less.

Why? Hasn't seemed to have worked so far. If you want to get deeper involved try doing what the radical islamists are doing on the ground for the poor and provide a social welfare system with free schools and health care.

Let me think this over, I expect it is one of the more important points. At the end of colonialism the freed states failed to rise to the challenge of freedom and responsibility. This I'd like to reply to you on with more consideration later.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:25 am

Seleucus wrote:I don't see much connection to Christianity; ...

It built itself upon the back of the pagan festivals by co-opting them and their holy sites.

Oh yeah. I see what you mean now. I misread and thought you were implying the Vergina Sun had a detour through Christian iconography.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:58 am

thedoc wrote:Terrorists could not survive without the support of the population they live in, Muslims certainly pray for the safety or the accomplishment of their mission or they wouldn't be successful in that mission.

Which Muslim's would these be?

The Muslims that cheer a successful attack on the US or any other western nation.

Science Fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:52 pm So, these Muslims are spending time telling their fellow Muslims not to pray for Muslim terrorists for absolutely no reason? That makes no sense. What is your evidence for the claim that Muslims do not pray for terrorists. After all, Muslims around the world were highly concerned with how Osama bin Laden was buried at sea. Why was that a concern if terrorists are automatically disowned by Muslims?

I think that the situation is not static but developing. I think that terrorist activity spurs Muslims to get a move on with integrating with the 'western' communities in which they live. I believe that conforming to the regime is the attitude of choice for everybody as a matter of psychology, and people who rebel do so for for reasons. The reasons that terrorists rebel against the wider community actually seems to be a particular interpretation of the holy books and the ethics therein. It has been obvious for some time that senior Muslims should make public statements of their policies and beliefs, and now some senior Muslims have done so and most if not nearly all the ministers at local level, the imams, are adding their voices to the voices of those senior Muslims.

Senior Christians and Jews are standing alongside those Muslims who are taking charge of the edicts of the Muslim community. As I said, its a developing situation, it's years since Osama died.

Seleucus wrote, regarding interning Muslim minorities:

Yes, and those who are quarenteened haven't done anything wrong either. It's a hard but necessary choice to make for the public good.

It may be a suitable analogy from the moral point of view. However it's not practically effective as is quarantine for infective diseases.

The better medical analogy is active immunisation of neutral Muslims against indoctrination by those illegal and murderous rebels. For active immunisation programmes to work there has to be universal exposure to the infection.

The probability of infection of neutral or law abiding Muslims ( and others besides Muslims let's not forget) depends to some extent on the numbers of invasive organisms. So as well as active immunisation there needs to be focused intervention against the massive sources of invasive pathogens. E.g. drinking fountains and bad sewerage, and dirty food providers. Meantime those people who have actively become immunised are valuable resources in the fight against the infection.