Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:14 am

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:52 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:34 pm
I have always wondered why and how human beings came to have such a high level of intelligence.

Okay, but 'this' is a BIG JUMP from what WAS just being talked ABOUT, and DISCUSSED, here.

I know, but I had to go there in order to explain why I think human beings cannot live in harmony. Maybe it is all nonsense, but you asked me to explain, so I did.

By the way If you would like to SEE, and/or UNDERSTAND, WHY 'your claims' here are NONSENSE in regards to WHY it is a so-called 'human instinct' to show EXTREME brutality towards "outsiders", then by all means let me KNOW.

But, if you are just interested in seeing anything I have to say here but then will just tell us what you think, or believe, is right, then that is NOT very interesting AT ALL. I much prefer, and thus much more INTERESTED, to SEE what ACTUAL PROOFS exist for what 'we' both SAY, and CLAIM, here.

Also, what could be called a 'human instinct' would HAVE TO BE some 'thing', which SEPARATES 'human animal' FROM ALL OTHER 'animals'. And, showing brutality towards "outsiders" is NOT ONLY uniquely 'human'. In fact what IS uniquely 'human' is the ABILITY to SHOW LOVE, CARE, and PROTECTION of and for absolutely EVERY 'thing' ELSE, or what 'you' might call "outsiders" here "harbal". NO other animal has this ABILITY.

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:35 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:22 pm Just let it go, IC, let it go.

Well, I'm not going to get an answer, it seems...so why not?

What's the point? We are just saying the same things over and over, and it's getting very boring.

You could answer the question...

...or maybe you couldn't.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:06 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:35 pm
Well, I'm not going to get an answer, it seems...so why not?

What's the point? We are just saying the same things over and over, and it's getting very boring.

You could answer the question...

...or maybe you couldn't.

Yes, there is always the possibility that I couldn't.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:35 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:17 am

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:54 pm

But, from my perspective, 'you' do NOT seem to be UNDERSTANDING what "Immanuel can" IS POINTING OUT and SHOWING here "harbal".

That's okay, I wasn't responding to him from your perspective.

That is okay. I was JUST SHARING 'my perspective' here.

Sorry for that reply, Age, I was feeling a bit grumpy.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:04 am

Age wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:35 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:17 am

That's okay, I wasn't responding to him from your perspective.

That is okay. I was JUST SHARING 'my perspective' here.

Sorry for that reply, Age, I was feeling a bit grumpy.

NO worries AT ALL.

By the way, I have trouble assuming the Correct 'emotions' 'playing out' in a human being when I am in front of a human being, let alone ever even imagining what 'emotions' one is having in written words.

I just look AT the words only, here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:06 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:35 pm
Well, I'm not going to get an answer, it seems...so why not?

What's the point? We are just saying the same things over and over, and it's getting very boring.

You could answer the question...

...or maybe you couldn't.

Well considering that you have NOT answered the question "yourself" "Immanuel can", and have SHOWN that 'you' will NOT, expecting "another" to answer 'it' could be seen as very DEMANDING, FROM 'you'.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:23 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:09 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:57 pm
You gave me a statement. But nothing suggests it's imperative. And imperative is something one HAS to do, that one has a DUTY to do, or has an OBLIGATION towards. And I'm just looking for the missing piece: what makes that imperative?

Well, perhaps; but then it's not "imperative," by definition, that you follow that axiom. You could do otherwise, and there'd be nothing "wrong" with you having done otherwise. You have no duty to choose that axiom over any other -- even its opposite. So manifestly, it no longer fits the case. It's not "imperative," by any account, for you to prefer it.

You say, "I expect it of myself." Okay. But when you don't, it's gone. And you could as easily have never "expected" it in the first place. On what basis do you think such a transient, temporary, private and ephemeral whim merits the term "moral"?

Okay, if you don't get it, I don't know what else to say.

It's not a case of "not getting it."

Absent any imperative implication, there isn't an imperative there to "get." There's only something on the level of a whim.

But you, yourself have pointed out that mere whims or matters-of-taste cannot possibly be imperative, so you really didn't provide a subjective imperative at all; just a subjective wish, which even you do not owe it to continue.

I believe the example I gave you fits the definition of imperative. You make it very difficult when you are constantly changing the definitions of words to suit you own purposes.

Anyway, you have a go at it. Give me an "objective" imperative that anybody has to follow, or even accept as anything other than your personal wish.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:54 pm I believe the example I gave you fits the definition of imperative.

Then explain what makes it "imperative" that you or I follow it, please.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:01 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:54 pm I believe the example I gave you fits the definition of imperative.

Then explain what makes it "imperative" that you or I follow it, please.

An imperative is just an instruction, or command, but there is nothing in its definition that says anyone has to follow the instruction or command.

But you can still provide an example of a moral imperative that has to be obeyed, if you like.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:09 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:01 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:54 pm I believe the example I gave you fits the definition of imperative.

Then explain what makes it "imperative" that you or I follow it, please.

An imperative is just an instruction, or command, but there is nothing in its definition that says anyone has to follow the instruction or command.

Webster's Dictionary:

imperative
1 of 2
adjective
im·​per·​a·​tive im-ˈper-ə-tiv
-ˈpe-rə-
Synonyms of imperative
1
: not to be avoided or evaded : necessary
an imperative duty

Collins:

imperative
[ im-per-uh-tiv ]
See synonyms for: imperativeimperativesimperativelyimperativeness on Thesaurus.com
adjective

absolutely necessary or required; unavoidable: It is imperative that we leave.

of the nature of or expressing a command; commanding.

Oxford:

noun. /ɪmˈperətɪv/ /ɪmˈperətɪv/ ​(formal) a thing that is very important and needs immediate attention or action; a factor that makes something necessary.

How many more do you need?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:18 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:09 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:01 pm
Then explain what makes it "imperative" that you or I follow it, please.

An imperative is just an instruction, or command, but there is nothing in its definition that says anyone has to follow the instruction or command.

Webster's Dictionary:

imperative
1 of 2
adjective
im·​per·​a·​tive im-ˈper-ə-tiv
-ˈpe-rə-
Synonyms of imperative
1
: not to be avoided or evaded : necessary
an imperative duty

Collins:

imperative
[ im-per-uh-tiv ]
See synonyms for: imperativeimperativesimperativelyimperativeness on Thesaurus.com
adjective

absolutely necessary or required; unavoidable: It is imperative that we leave.

of the nature of or expressing a command; commanding.

Oxford:

noun. /ɪmˈperətɪv/ /ɪmˈperətɪv/ ​(formal) a thing that is very important and needs immediate attention or action; a factor that makes something necessary.

How many more do you need?

I only require one that I cannot choose to ignore.

And don't forget: You can still provide an example of a moral imperative that has to be obeyed, if you like.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:18 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:09 pm

An imperative is just an instruction, or command, but there is nothing in its definition that says anyone has to follow the instruction or command.

Webster's Dictionary:

imperative
1 of 2
adjective
im·​per·​a·​tive im-ˈper-ə-tiv
-ˈpe-rə-
Synonyms of imperative
1
: not to be avoided or evaded : necessary
an imperative duty

Collins:

imperative
[ im-per-uh-tiv ]
See synonyms for: imperativeimperativesimperativelyimperativeness on Thesaurus.com
adjective

absolutely necessary or required; unavoidable: It is imperative that we leave.

of the nature of or expressing a command; commanding.

Oxford:

noun. /ɪmˈperətɪv/ /ɪmˈperətɪv/ ​(formal) a thing that is very important and needs immediate attention or action; a factor that makes something necessary.

How many more do you need?

I only require one that I cannot choose to ignore.

And don't forget: You can still provide an example of a moral imperative that has to be obeyed, if you like.

Well, you're choosing to ignore the standard definition of "imperative," very clearly.

As for an objective imperative, I can easily provide one. But as you are ignoring the definition of "imperative," how can I not see that you'll simply ignore it, too, since as a subjectivist, you have to believe that NOTHING is ever "imperative." There is only moral nihilism, if subjectivism is taken seriously and followed through to its logical conclusions.

Fortunately for us all, subjectivists almost never take their subjectivism seriously, or follow out its logic to moral nihilism. Instead, they fudge their beliefs and say both that "morality is real and binding" and also that "morality is only subjective and optional". They just refuse to recognize the irrationality of that.

But that manifest self-contradiction is also why subjectivism cannot be taken seriously at all.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:35 pm But that manifest self-contradiction is also why subjectivism cannot be taken seriously at all.

I take subjectivisim as seriously as it takes itself.

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:35 pm But that manifest self-contradiction is also why subjectivism cannot be taken seriously at all.

I take subjectivisim as seriously as it takes itself.

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Nicely put.

Fun fact: not only is morality subjective, but a few humans may have more than one subjective moralities. I'm thinking of humans with multiple personalities and humans with one fragmented personality/mind.