Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:38 pmHenry, if a man is a separate mind in a separate brain/body, how do mind and body connect with each other ? We know they do connect as we experience mind knowing what body does.

Well, I'm goin' full whacko here, B: take care not to get any of my craziness on you.

Man is a composite of mind & matter or spirit & flesh. Two very different things melded together irrevocably. Neither worth spit without the other. Man isn't an embodied spirit bidin' his time till he can cast off his meat suit. Man is both mind and meat, together. Man is an amalgam, an alloy.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:46 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:38 pmHenry, if a man is a separate mind in a separate brain/body, how do mind and body connect with each other ? We know they do connect as we experience mind knowing what body does.

Well, I'm goin' full whacko here, B: take care not to get any of my craziness on you.

Man is a composite of mind & matter or spirit & flesh. Two very different things melded together irrevocably. Neither worth spit without the other. Man isn't an embodied spirit bidin' his time till he can cast off his meat suit. Man is both mind and meat, together. Man is an amalgam, an alloy.

I always believed you had the capability for full whacko. You are one of us now.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:24 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:46 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:33 pm ... other minds are not confined to human minds ...

They are the only minds I know of. "Mind," is the attribute of human consciousness that differentiates human beings from all other organisms. There isn't any other kind of mind.

Of course definitions of words like mind can make a difference here, but you don't think other animals have minds?

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:26 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:33 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:29 pm

Don't know how to work google, eh?

Anywho: in context, it's mind and brain. That is mind is one substance and brain is another.

And, yes, I know I'm wrong and dumb and misguided for believin' such things: you can spare me the lecture & essay.

Descartes believed something similar and he was brilliant. I think both you and he mistaken, not dumb or misguided. You certainly have better ground for your view than any physicalist who thinks the brain secrets consciousness like a ductless gland or it emerges by magic when there is enough complexity.

I just don't see why a physical living organsim cannot have the attribute of consciousness without it being anything more than a perfectly natural attribute of that organism--just not a physical attribute. Why does it have to be some kind of, "stuff?" Isn't it enough to know being conscious, thinking, learning, and consciously choosing are things those organism do which cannot be explained in terms of physical properties, without requiring some additional substance or stuff? Especially since there is no evidence for any such stuff.

Evidence doesn’t appear by magic … and no one said it does, despite your implication.

It’s logical to assume that an organism with limited senses cannot sense all forms, under all conditions. Therefore, it’s logical to assume that humans with limited senses cannot perceive all evidence.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:14 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:24 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:46 pm
They are the only minds I know of. "Mind," is the attribute of human consciousness that differentiates human beings from all other organisms. There isn't any other kind of mind.

Of course definitions of words like mind can make a difference here, but you don't think other animals have minds?

No I don't. Animals are conscious like human beings, but do not have minds. A mind is a uniquely human consciousness because only human beings are required by their nature to consciously choose their behavior (volition) to have knowledge to know what to choose (intellect) and to think and make judgments required to make choices (rationality), all of which are impossible without language.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:46 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:14 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:24 am
Of course definitions of words like mind can make a difference here, but you don't think other animals have minds?

No I don't. Animals are conscious like human beings, but do not have minds. A mind is a uniquely human consciousness because only human beings are required by their nature to consciously choose their behavior (volition) to have knowledge to know what to choose (intellect) and to think and make judgments required to make choices (rationality), all of which are impossible without language.

It's true that human beings are probably the only living beings that think they are selves. However mind is usually defined ultimately by qualities of feeling, and other animals do feel.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:13 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:46 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:14 pm
No I don't. Animals are conscious like human beings, but do not have minds. A mind is a uniquely human consciousness because only human beings are required by their nature to consciously choose their behavior (volition) to have knowledge to know what to choose (intellect) and to think and make judgments required to make choices (rationality), all of which are impossible without language.

It's true that human beings are probably the only living beings that think they are selves. However mind is usually defined ultimately by qualities of feeling, and other animals do feel.

Oh Belinda. I know you mean well, else I would not bother, but I think you let what you would like to be true determine what you decide to believe.

First of all, you cannot possibly know if animals feel anything, and certainly not what they feel if they do. You cannot even know if anyone else feels anything. You have to just take their word for it that they do. The only feeling you can know there is and what it is is your own.

Secondly it would not matter if everyone in the whole world believed that feelings were the equivalent of mind. (They don't, which you can verify yourself from any dictionary). Feelings are just consciousness of the physiological behavior of the body. They are non-cogent and usually deceptive if one allows feelings to interfere with their reason.

Thirdly, only human beings must have verbal knowledge and must use that knowledge to think (because there is nothing else to think with or about), and use that ability to think ask and answer questions and make the judgements necessary to consciously choose their behavior. That knowledge gaining and storing ability (intellect) and thinking ability (reason) and conscious choosing ability(volition) are the human mind.

You (and any crackpot psychologist or academic philosopher) can make up any definition of mind you like. but what I described is what I mean. If you regard anything else as mind, you are going to have to coin a new term for the intellectual, rational, volitional aspects of human consciousness which no animal has.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:21 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:13 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:46 pm
It's true that human beings are probably the only living beings that think they are selves. However mind is usually defined ultimately by qualities of feeling, and other animals do feel.

Oh Belinda. I know you mean well, else I would not bother, but I think you let what you would like to be true determine what you decide to believe.

First of all, you cannot possibly know if animals feel anything, and certainly not what they feel if they do. You cannot even know if anyone else feels anything. You have to just take their word for it that they do. The only feeling you can know there is and what it is is your own.

Secondly it would not matter if everyone in the whole world believed that feelings were the equivalent of mind. (They don't, which you can verify yourself from any dictionary). Feelings are just consciousness of the physiological behavior of the body. They are non-cogent and usually deceptive if one allows feelings to interfere with their reason.

Thirdly, only human beings must have verbal knowledge and must use that knowledge to think (because there is nothing else to think with or about), and use that ability to think ask and answer questions and make the judgements necessary to consciously choose their behavior. That knowledge gaining and storing ability (intellect) and thinking ability (reason) and conscious choosing ability(volition) are the human mind.

You (and any crackpot psychologist or academic philosopher) can make up any definition of mind you like. but what I described is what I mean. If you regard anything else as mind, you are going to have to coin a new term for the intellectual, rational, volitional aspects of human consciousness which no animal has.

Not even you can divorce feelings from your whole being!

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:46 pm One knows animals feel in the same way one knows other humans feel. Sympathy is partly observation of physical changes ('body language') and partly one's own subjective feelings. Sympathy is therefore a form of relationship . Relationships are conceptualised and so become mind.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:11 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:21 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:13 pm
Oh Belinda. I know you mean well, else I would not bother, but I think you let what you would like to be true determine what you decide to believe.

First of all, you cannot possibly know if animals feel anything, and certainly not what they feel if they do. You cannot even know if anyone else feels anything. You have to just take their word for it that they do. The only feeling you can know there is and what it is is your own.

Secondly it would not matter if everyone in the whole world believed that feelings were the equivalent of mind. (They don't, which you can verify yourself from any dictionary). Feelings are just consciousness of the physiological behavior of the body. They are non-cogent and usually deceptive if one allows feelings to interfere with their reason.

Thirdly, only human beings must have verbal knowledge and must use that knowledge to think (because there is nothing else to think with or about), and use that ability to think ask and answer questions and make the judgements necessary to consciously choose their behavior. That knowledge gaining and storing ability (intellect) and thinking ability (reason) and conscious choosing ability(volition) are the human mind.

You (and any crackpot psychologist or academic philosopher) can make up any definition of mind you like. but what I described is what I mean. If you regard anything else as mind, you are going to have to coin a new term for the intellectual, rational, volitional aspects of human consciousness which no animal has.

Not even you can divorce feelings from your whole being!

Who ever even suggested such a thing. The emotions are necessary to our whole experience and enjoyment of life and are so important and potent, to be confused about theie nature and mistake feelings for reason is absolutely disastrous. Probably every evil and self-destructive thing anyone has ever done is because they allowed some feeling--a desire, whim, passion, impression or impulse--to influence their choices in defiance of their own best reason.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:46 pm One knows animals feel in the same way one knows other humans feel. Sympathy is partly observation of physical changes ('body language') and partly one's own subjective feelings. Sympathy is therefore a form of relationship . Relationships are conceptualised and so become mind.

You cannot know what anyone else's conscious experiences are (unless you are a mind reader), and no one else can know what your conscious experience is. Even when you explain what you feel to someone else, they can only know what their own feelings are and can suppose what you describing is the same as yours. But you cannot really ever explain to someone else what your conscious experience is. You cannot explain to someone who has never tasted cinnamon what cinnamon tastes like to you, or what colors you experience to someone who is color blind, or what music sounds like to you to someone who is tone deaf.

As for animals, you have no idea what their conscious experience is. Have you ever smelled cat food? It would probably make you vomit, but they love it. Obviously their experience of the smell of things is totally different from yours. Your cat cannot see colors, but can see in light levels at which you would be blind, but human beings cannot even imagine what that conscious experience must be like.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:58 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:11 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:21 am

Not even you can divorce feelings from your whole being!

Who ever even suggested such a thing. The emotions are necessary to our whole experience and enjoyment of life and are so important and potent, to be confused about theie nature and mistake feelings for reason is absolutely disastrous. Probably every evil and self-destructive thing anyone has ever done is because they allowed some feeling--a desire, whim, passion, impression or impulse--to influence their choices in defiance of their own best reason.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:46 pm One knows animals feel in the same way one knows other humans feel. Sympathy is partly observation of physical changes ('body language') and partly one's own subjective feelings. Sympathy is therefore a form of relationship . Relationships are conceptualised and so become mind.

You cannot know what anyone else's conscious experiences are (unless you are a mind reader), and no one else can know what your conscious experience is. Even when you explain what you feel to someone else, they can only know what their own feelings are and can suppose what you describing is the same as yours. But you cannot really ever explain to someone else what your conscious experience is. You cannot explain to someone who has never tasted cinnamon what cinnamon tastes like to you, or what colors you experience to someone who is color blind, or what music sounds like to you to someone who is tone deaf.

As for animals, you have no idea what their conscious experience is. Have you ever smelled cat food? It would probably make you vomit, but they love it. Obviously their experience of the smell of things is totally different from yours. Your cat cannot see colors, but can see in light levels at which you would be blind, but human beings cannot even imagine what that conscious experience must be like.

Human feelings are physiological emotions that have been refined and evaluated by the central nervous system.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:11 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:58 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:11 pm
Who ever even suggested such a thing. The emotions are necessary to our whole experience and enjoyment of life and are so important and potent, to be confused about theie nature and mistake feelings for reason is absolutely disastrous. Probably every evil and self-destructive thing anyone has ever done is because they allowed some feeling--a desire, whim, passion, impression or impulse--to influence their choices in defiance of their own best reason.

You cannot know what anyone else's conscious experiences are (unless you are a mind reader), and no one else can know what your conscious experience is. Even when you explain what you feel to someone else, they can only know what their own feelings are and can suppose what you describing is the same as yours. But you cannot really ever explain to someone else what your conscious experience is. You cannot explain to someone who has never tasted cinnamon what cinnamon tastes like to you, or what colors you experience to someone who is color blind, or what music sounds like to you to someone who is tone deaf.

As for animals, you have no idea what their conscious experience is. Have you ever smelled cat food? It would probably make you vomit, but they love it. Obviously their experience of the smell of things is totally different from yours. Your cat cannot see colors, but can see in light levels at which you would be blind, but human beings cannot even imagine what that conscious experience must be like.

Human feelings are physiological emotions that have been refined and evaluated by the central nervous system.

I have no idea where you get some of these ideas, Belinda. Many of them sound like typical psychobable and others some kind of mysticism. Whatever you mean by the "central nervous system," or any other part of the nervous system, it does not refine, evaluate, or process anything.

I do not think you really know what feelings and emotions are, but I have not the time to explain the entire subject. If you are interested, please see the following articles in which I much more fully explain them:

# "Feelings,"

# "Feelings And Emotions: Their Nature, Significance, And Importance,"

# "Emotions," and an older version,

# "Emotions: Their Importance and Control."

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:36 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:11 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:58 pm

Human feelings are physiological emotions that have been refined and evaluated by the central nervous system.

I have no idea where you get some of these ideas, Belinda. Many of them sound like typical psychobable and others some kind of mysticism. Whatever you mean by the "central nervous system," or any other part of the nervous system, it does not refine, evaluate, or process anything.

I do not think you really know what feelings and emotions are, but I have not the time to explain the entire subject. If you are interested, please see the following articles in which I much more fully explain them:

# "Feelings,"

# "Feelings And Emotions: Their Nature, Significance, And Importance,"

# "Emotions," and an older version,

# "Emotions: Their Importance and Control."

I learned a lot of it from quite a low academic level of anatomy and physiology studies mostly when I was a student nurse.

Why do you act the way that you do? If it is because you feel you ought to do something, you probably recognize there is little free will involved. You are being “coerced” by society or family, or influenced by concerns over what might happen if you don’t act in that way. On the other hand, if you do something because you want to, then perhaps you believe you are exercising free will. But is this true even when you trace the source of your desire? For example, you see a cream cake in the window of a shop, and the thought arises, “I would like some cake.” Did you freely choose to have that thought? Indeed, can you choose to have any thought? Do they not simply “arise”?

Anyone who has thought deeply about spiritual matters knows that one of the fundamental problems is how to reconcile our day-to-day experience with claims about God or a nondual reality. The first level seems concrete and demonstrable while the second is speculative, to say the least.

phyllo wrote:

For example, you see a cream cake in the window of a shop, and the thought arises, “I would like some cake.” Did you freely choose to have that thought? Indeed, can you choose to have any thought? Do they not simply “arise”?

You have free-will.

You eat a cake and you like it.

The next time that you see it and want to eat it again, then you don't have free-will any more?

Because, the thought that you want to eat it just arose?

Are you now and forever controlled by the cake, your desires, your preferences?

How does this shit work?

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:06 pm Anyone here thoroughly familiar with how the Big Bang ...