Philosophy Now Forum

Greta

Any cosmic religion that you subscribe to - one that that endorses the sexism, racism, warmongering, science denial, environmental vandalism, attacks on equality and the reflexive lying of Trump - is not one that Einstein would want to be associated with.

The essence of religion concerns itself with Man’s “being” – what we ARE. Politics is secular and anything secular including secularized religion concerns itself with what we DO.

You are describing the hypocrisy of secular progressive politics. For example, progressives are now up in arms about the actions of Harvey Weinstein abusing women as though it is a revelation. It was always known and considered acceptable sexism because Harvey is one of the "good guys.". The same is true with Bill Clinton. What he does is acceptable especially with those considered trailor park women because he like Weinstein is considered one of the “good guys.” You are attacking theism when you should be attacking the hypocrisy of secular politics.

While we humans pretend to be above nature, the fact is that nature is reorganising once again and we humans at present are amongst the "lucky" ones to be restructured this time around. These changes affect the way people think and react. We cannot wind the clock back to the halcyon years of the iron Age [sic]; rather, today's people are shaped their own times and cultures. Attempts at regression by any culture would be a serious setback for that culture as nations position themselves before the hard times ahead.

Nature is reorganizing in accordance with the pendelum effect.

5. The Principle of Rhythm
"Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides;
all things rise and fall; the pendulum-swing manifests in
everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the
measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates."--The
Kybalion.

The Great Beast as a creature of REACTION follows the principle of rhythm described in Ecclesiastes 3: A Time for Everything. The Great Beast is incapable of anything other than secular hypocrisy so positive secular progress is only temporary until the pendulum swings in the other direction.. The only quality capable of altering the cyclical reactions of the Great Beast is CONSCIOUS ACTION. Secular intolerance will do whatever is necessary for it to destroy the normal human inclination to consciously awaken to human meaning and purpose leading to conscious action. It is dominant so everything will continue as is.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:28 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:08 pm Nick_A wrote:

How can I respond to Arising concerning education. He still believes that education is about what should be taught and those like Einstein know education is about providing the conditions where learning becomes possible.

Your own opinions on educating the young are verbal diarrhoea. There is something there but it has no substance. Your condition is chronic.

This is why education cannot be discussed here. All efforts that are not in accordance with the modern progressive's teaching manual will be considered verbal diarrhea. Negative attitudes make create a non starter for the topic.

Nick, you are right of course. Einstein was also right about creating the right conditions for which children could learn. But schools are not set-up with the intent to guide children toward following their own chosen fields into becoming self-employed carpenters or brilliant artists or whatever. No, schools are deliberately set- up to make little worker ants for the giant corporations and industries..education is too rigid.

But I don't think the current educational system will ever change, even if we wanted it to, schools are owned by the establishment,it's an institution that has been running since the dawn of time. I call it the Firms FARM....(In England I mean) but the good news is no one can force another person to do anything against their own will or without their permission, that's just the law.

One can simply choose to home school their children and think for themselves, and to basically follow their own dreams that they have carved out for themselves, even if that means living the rest of their lives in a tree-house or on a boat, or by becoming self-sufficient owning their own plot of land where they can grow their own food...or what-ever they choose to do with their lives. We don't have to choose to live in the Matrix.

.

You have made a good point there, Dontaskme. At university level the difference between vocational training and education becomes even more pronounced. Students who choose arts education instead of vocational training such as medicine or law, are probably going to earn less money. In schools, especially the primary and junior schools, the teachers want and do what they can to teach liberally but they are held back in their efforts by paperwork and requirements for tests.

In the education industry there are three influences. These are the government, the teachers, and the parents.
Those of us who support the teachers are supporting people who have professional expertise, which parents and government lack.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:08 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:28 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:08 pm Nick_A wrote:



Your own opinions on educating the young are verbal diarrhoea. There is something there but it has no substance. Your condition is chronic.

This is why education cannot be discussed here. All efforts that are not in accordance with the modern progressive's teaching manual will be considered verbal diarrhea. Negative attitudes make create a non starter for the topic.

Nick, you are right of course. Einstein was also right about creating the right conditions for which children could learn. But schools are not set-up with the intent to guide children toward following their own chosen fields into becoming self-employed carpenters or brilliant artists or whatever. No, schools are deliberately set- up to make little worker ants for the giant corporations and industries..education is too rigid.

But I don't think the current educational system will ever change, even if we wanted it to, schools are owned by the establishment,it's an institution that has been running since the dawn of time. I call it the Firms FARM....(In England I mean) but the good news is no one can force another person to do anything against their own will or without their permission, that's just the law.

One can simply choose to home school their children and think for themselves, and to basically follow their own dreams that they have carved out for themselves, even if that means living the rest of their lives in a tree-house or on a boat, or by becoming self-sufficient owning their own plot of land where they can grow their own food...or what-ever they choose to do with their lives. We don't have to choose to live in the Matrix.

.

IMO opinion there is a better alternative than home schooling. We know that there are enough people who have begun to smell the coffee and know nothing other than what we see now is possible in public education. The answer is private schools with the goal of a human education as opposed to state indoctrination. It can be done.

The Platonic influence leading towards the cosmic man has been discarded but just consider if the difference were publically accepted? It can't be so the hope is for those in private schools run by those who know the human meaning of education. Consider the following

http://epublications.marquette.edu/diss ... AI9517932/

Plato regards education as a means to achieve justice, both individual justice and social justice. According to Plato, individual justice can be obtained when each individual develops his or her ability to the fullest. In this sense, justice means excellence. For the Greeks and Plato, excellence is virtue. According to Socrates, virtue is knowledge. Thus, knowledge is required to be just. From this Plato concludes that virtue can be obtained through three stages of development of knowledge: knowledge of one's own job, self-knowledge, and knowledge of the Idea of the Good................................

Social justice has become a cheap term used to further blind indoctrination. Plato is referring to the importance of a skill, self knowledge, and opening to intuitive knowledge of the source or the GOOD. The modern skill is with computers as opposed to use of the hands. Self knowledge is supplied by the society telling you what we are and the GOOD is the Great Beast. Somthing got lost in the process.

That is why the human future for the young depends on increasing private schools.

Nick_A wrote:

IMO opinion there is a better alternative than home schooling. We know that there are enough people who have begun to smell the coffee and know nothing other than what we see now is possible in public education. The answer is private schools with the goal of a human education as opposed to state indoctrination. It can be done.

But private schools have to be inspected to ensure that they are providing children with adequate preparation for their adult lives. In the past week for instance an Islamic faith school was ordered to stop discriminating between boys and girls.

Your "the goal of a human education as opposed to state indoctrination" is typical of your opinions which sound very grand but actually contain no facts.

Below is an extract from 'Religious Education in English Education, which is non-statutory guidance from the Department of Education.

Creative curriculum planning
Many schools have been exploring creative and flexible ways of providing RE.
For example, at one school, primary pupils study stories and myths that
introduce them to concepts of good and evil, fear, courage, conflict and
justice, in ways that are safe, enjoyable and yet exciting. All religions and
beliefs provide such stories. Listening to these and other tales, exploring their
meanings and responding to the questions they raise can contribute to young
children’s mental and emotional well-being. One six-year-old, for instance,
said:
‘I like the story of Rama and Sita, and painting hands. I like the part when the
monster goes away.’37
To help pupils lead safer, healthier and more fulfilled and productive lives, the
study of issues such as crime and punishment, sex and relationships,
addiction and dependency, diet and body image can give secondary pupils a
stronger understanding of the reasons for criminal or harmful behaviour and
its impact on individuals and society. One 16-year-old said:
‘RE is one of my favourite subjects and the reason for that is that most of the
time in lessons we discuss issues that make me look inside myself and think
very deeply about the world, behaviour, my personality and my beliefs. I have
learnt not only the facts about different religions but I have learnt a lot about
myself.’
Good-practice examples include schools providing opportunities for:
 exploring controversial religious issues in the modern world –
including media misrepresentations of religion
 representatives of ‘seldom heard’ religious communities to work
with the school and develop confidence that their traditions are
respected
 pupils with strong commitments to share their experience in a safe
context and see that their religion or belief is valued and respected
 learning outside the classroom and inviting visitors to it, giving
pupils the chance to interact with different religions and nonreligious
groups locally
 theme days or assemblies related to, for example, Holocaust
Memorial Day – often working in partnership with other subjects,
most notably citizenship.
37 Unless otherwise stated, the quotations from pupils in this section are reproduced courtesy
of the National Association of Teachers of Religious Education (NATRE).
32

Examples of particularly effective practice include:
 One headteacher saw RE as a context for analysing patterns of
religious diversity in the area, forging links with local mosques and
between mosques and local churches, and using these links to
develop extended school and family learning opportunities.
 A school with a mainly white mono-cultural intake twinned with a
school with a high percentage of pupils from the Muslim tradition

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:51 pm Nick_A wrote:

IMO opinion there is a better alternative than home schooling. We know that there are enough people who have begun to smell the coffee and know nothing other than what we see now is possible in public education. The answer is private schools with the goal of a human education as opposed to state indoctrination. It can be done.

But private schools have to be inspected to ensure that they are providing children with adequate preparation for their adult lives. In the past week for instance an Islamic faith school was ordered to stop discriminating between boys and girls.

Your "the goal of a human education as opposed to state indoctrination" is typical of your opinions which sound very grand but actually contain no facts.

Below is an extract from 'Religious Education in English Education, which is non-statutory guidance from the Department of Education.

Creative curriculum planning
Many schools have been exploring creative and flexible ways of providing RE.
For example, at one school, primary pupils study stories and myths that
introduce them to concepts of good and evil, fear, courage, conflict and
justice, in ways that are safe, enjoyable and yet exciting. All religions and
beliefs provide such stories. Listening to these and other tales, exploring their
meanings and responding to the questions they raise can contribute to young
children’s mental and emotional well-being. One six-year-old, for instance,
said:
‘I like the story of Rama and Sita, and painting hands. I like the part when the
monster goes away.’37
To help pupils lead safer, healthier and more fulfilled and productive lives, the
study of issues such as crime and punishment, sex and relationships,
addiction and dependency, diet and body image can give secondary pupils a
stronger understanding of the reasons for criminal or harmful behaviour and
its impact on individuals and society. One 16-year-old said:
‘RE is one of my favourite subjects and the reason for that is that most of the
time in lessons we discuss issues that make me look inside myself and think
very deeply about the world, behaviour, my personality and my beliefs. I have
learnt not only the facts about different religions but I have learnt a lot about
myself.’
Good-practice examples include schools providing opportunities for:
 exploring controversial religious issues in the modern world –
including media misrepresentations of religion
 representatives of ‘seldom heard’ religious communities to work
with the school and develop confidence that their traditions are
respected
 pupils with strong commitments to share their experience in a safe
context and see that their religion or belief is valued and respected
 learning outside the classroom and inviting visitors to it, giving
pupils the chance to interact with different religions and nonreligious
groups locally
 theme days or assemblies related to, for example, Holocaust
Memorial Day – often working in partnership with other subjects,
most notably citizenship.
37 Unless otherwise stated, the quotations from pupils in this section are reproduced courtesy
of the National Association of Teachers of Religious Education (NATRE).
32

Examples of particularly effective practice include:
 One headteacher saw RE as a context for analysing patterns of
religious diversity in the area, forging links with local mosques and
between mosques and local churches, and using these links to
develop extended school and family learning opportunities.
 A school with a mainly white mono-cultural intake twinned with a
school with a high percentage of pupils from the Muslim tradition

Religious education without knowledge of the "Good" and Man's relationship to it as described by Plato.Typical.

Nick_A wrote:...
How can I respond to Arising concerning education. ...

By saying what you would teach and how?

He still believes that education is about what should be taught and those like Einstein know education is about providing the conditions where learning becomes possible. ...

You do like saying what people believe don't you. In this you have taken Weil's marxism to heart along with its ability to be unswayed by any reason. As it happens I agree with some of what you say about the state of the education system in the UK as unfortunately we have followed the Yank model in this respect.

That you miss the irony of you talking about Einstein and these 'conditions of learning' is due to you wanting the exact opposite and to impose your metaphysical theological theism upon the young.

Even recognition of the difference between intuition and analysis would be impossible to explain in a post. ...

Who asked you to? I just asked you what you will be teaching the young and how?

How can I explain providing the conditions where the results of conscious attention or the ability to listen when one wishes to emote are provided? ...

You want to teach the young histrionics?

If there are enough sufficiently interested in human as opposed to cave education would be a meaningful discussion. As it stands now, discussing Plato’s concept of education would be emotionally blown off of the forum. ...

Pray tell? As Plato's concept of education is opposed to what you would wish to impose. As at it's higher levels it has nothing to do with producing a 'Cosmic Man', nor with intuition but all to do with reasoning.

This complaint calling ideas abuse is both common and dangerous as it is taking place in universities. Can you imagine what it must feel like to need a “safe place” to hide from the abuse of ideas inspiring one to think? It seems impossible until you learn it is happening now.

This is a retrograde step in the universities but what can you expect as it comes from an America where the intellectual has been decried for many a year now, where they are scorned for being elitist just for being educated and apparently one's belief's are true just because one holds them.

Whatever the interminable BS pro or con; whether Einstein and the Cosmic Man or Einstein and the horny toad, etc., humans are going to go their way regardless even if that means going away forever, partly or completely. We should consider ourselves an experiment in survival without pity, mercy or empathy offered anywhere in the universe where everything develops or gets destroyed in total solitude. These warped insane idealizations per title offer nothing in the meantime only ironic caricatures of how we expect the far future to turn out.

A_uk

You do like saying what people believe don't you. In this you have taken Weil's marxism to heart along with its ability to be unswayed by any reason.

You are the one asking what I would teach and ignoring the necessary condition for learning. Simone learned through intuition why Marxism was a futile effort. The human condition left to its own devices assures its futility.

Boris Souvarine, who had been head at one time of the French communist party, but later broke with Stalin, and who was the first to write an authoritative biography of the still living dictator, admired Simone immensely: "She's the most intelligent woman I've met since Rosa Luxemburg," he said.

Simone Weil was highly regarded by the French Marxist party and admired by Leon Trotsky. So what happened? Simone had an open mind so could open to intuition which is a higher form of intellect than reason. She came to understand that:

“Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace.”

As we are, governed by the human condition which puts us into opposition with ourselves, the goals of Marxism and humanism are impossible. Einstein experienced the results of the human condition in Germany and speculated if we could evolve to the level of the cosmic man acquiring a human perspective transcending expressions and defense of the human condition. This thread is a good indication that it is doubtful.

Pray tell? As Plato's concept of education is opposed to what you would wish to impose. As at it's higher levels it has nothing to do with producing a 'Cosmic Man', nor with intuition but all to do with reasoning.

You have adopted the Greta strategy of accusing first and asking questions later. You cannot find any post by me attempting an imposition. I have written of awakening which is vertical conscious awareness as opposed to the linear flat direction of imposition. Secularism seeks to impose its beliefs onto society. I support those who further awakening to the potential for human "being". They write of the necessary influence of the great ideas within the depth of philosophy and sacred scripture. They further awakening. Progressive secularism strives to indoctrinate people into its vision of society which in reality is just the Great Beast the mood of which is ever changing.

Awakening into the direction of the cosmic man vs. indoctrination into secular slavery. An ancient struggle. Unfortunately, during this time in human history, indoctrination is winning and the world can only suffer as a result

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:40 pm Whatever the interminable BS pro or con; whether Einstein and the Cosmic Man or Einstein and the horny toad, etc., humans are going to go their way regardless even if that means going away forever, partly or completely. We should consider ourselves an experiment in survival without pity, mercy or empathy offered anywhere in the universe where everything develops or gets destroyed in total solitude. These warped insane idealizations per title offer nothing in the meantime only ironic caricatures of how we expect the far future to turn out.

You are probably right. Secular intolerance will destroy the natural impulse towards conscious evolution for the majority assuring the demise of our species as a whole. I guess all good things must come to an end.

Nick_A wrote:You are the one asking what I would teach and ignoring the necessary condition for learning. ...

Which you steadfastly appear to not say?

Simone learned through intuition why Marxism was a futile effort. The human condition left to its own devices assures its futility.

Weil learned through experience of the communists much as Orwell did.

Boris Souvarine, who had been head at one time of the French communist party, but later broke with Stalin, and who was the first to write an authoritative biography of the still living dictator, admired Simone immensely: "She's the most intelligent woman I've met since Rosa Luxemburg," he said.

Simone Weil was highly regarded by the French Marxist party and admired by Leon Trotsky. So what happened? Simone had an open mind so could open to intuition which is a higher form of intellect than reason. She came to understand that:

“Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace.”

All credit to her for noticing the perils of Stalinism but if by 'grace' you mean your mystical christian theism then she is at odds with Plato in this matter.

As we are, governed by the human condition which puts us into opposition with ourselves, the goals of Marxism and humanism are impossible. ...

What is this 'human condition' you keep yakking about?

Einstein experienced the results of the human condition in Germany and speculated if we could evolve to the level of the cosmic man acquiring a human perspective transcending expressions and defense of the human condition. ...

You are equating two things that aren't correlated. Einstein was smart and left before he could experience the Nazi.

This thread is a good indication that it is doubtful.

Given yourself I'd have to agree.

You have adopted the Greta strategy of accusing first and asking questions later. ...

Pay attention at the back there! I've only firstly asked you questions, ones which you appear loathe to answer. The strategy of those who have an agenda to hide.

You cannot find any post by me attempting an imposition. I have written of awakening which is vertical conscious awareness as opposed to the linear flat direction of imposition. Secularism seeks to impose its beliefs onto society. I support those who further awakening to the potential for human "being". They write of the necessary influence of the great ideas within the depth of philosophy and sacred scripture. They further awakening. Progressive secularism strives to indoctrinate people into its vision of society which in reality is just the Great Beast the mood of which is ever changing. ...

Your every post is an imposition of your theist dogmatism unto the rest of us, you are just like the marxists in that nothing anyone says is not filtered through it and dismissed as against the 'revolution'.

Awakening into the direction of the cosmic man vs. indoctrination into secular slavery. An ancient struggle. Unfortunately, during this time in human history, indoctrination is winning and the world can only suffer as a result

There you go again! 'Secular slavery' is a nonsense phrase let alone an ancient one as it's only very recently that secularism has even been allowed as a concept in the matters of Man and its a phrase which you use to hide what you really dislike and that is Atheism. Which is ironic as that is not allowed to be taught in schools either.

A_uk

Nick_A wrote:You are the one asking what I would teach and ignoring the necessary condition for learning. ...

Which you steadfastly appear to not say?

Einstein wrote: “The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education”.

If you can understand this, it will be clear why the condition for learning is of primary importance. How does education prevent learning?

Weil learned through experience of the communists much as Orwell did.

If this is true why hasn’t everyone else learned the same thing?

What is this 'human condition' you keep yakking about?

The human condition is what makes you live as a plurality often in opposition to yourself rather than as inner unity. Plurality can only be reconciled through imagination necessary to make plurality livable. Read Plato’s Cave and you’ll learn of the human condition.

You are equating two things that aren't correlated. Einstein was smart and left before he could experience the Nazi.

Regardless, he knew what was coming. It was obviously inhuman and typical of what happens in the world. This raises the question of why we are inhuman and what it would take to become human with a cosmic perspective.

Einstein wrote:

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.

Cosmic men appreciate their insignificance and strive to develop their understanding so as to open to human meaning and purpose within the conscious universe. Cave Man is content to worship the Great Beast as the greatest expression of conscious awareness.

Your every post is an imposition of your theist dogmatism………….

What is my theist dogmatism?

There you go again! 'Secular slavery' is a nonsense phrase let alone an ancient one as it's only very recently that secularism has even been allowed as a concept in the matters of Man and its a phrase which you use to hide what you really dislike and that is Atheism. Which is ironic as that is not allowed to be taught in schools either.

Man comprising the Great Beast is an automaton lacking consciousness, conscious attention, and will capable of actualizing conscious awareness of the universal reality so just goes with the flow and becomes a slave to societal whims. That is secular slavery. Of course there are the exceptions not content with secular slavery but instead insist on opening to the potential for awakening to become what they are and acquire a human perspective. They are an annoyance to secularism which seeks to eliminate them as a disturbance to the ways of cave life..

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:37 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:40 pm Whatever the interminable BS pro or con; whether Einstein and the Cosmic Man or Einstein and the horny toad, etc., humans are going to go their way regardless even if that means going away forever, partly or completely. We should consider ourselves an experiment in survival without pity, mercy or empathy offered anywhere in the universe where everything develops or gets destroyed in total solitude. These warped insane idealizations per title offer nothing in the meantime only ironic caricatures of how we expect the far future to turn out.

You are probably right. Secular intolerance will destroy the natural impulse towards conscious evolution for the majority assuring the demise of our species as a whole. I guess all good things must come to an end.

If we don't make it, or worse, merely existing in a state of protracted continuance until fate takes over, the cause won't simply be secular intolerance as you describe it. Instead that process would already have begun in those periods when the word "secular" and its various meanings didn't even exist. That degree of failure could only have evolved from the inadequacies of human nature itself no matter what conditions you apply or who said what in all their cosmic wisdom!

Nick wrote:

Religious education without knowledge of the "Good" and Man's relationship to it as described by Plato.Typical.

The teaching of Plato to young children is both justified and possible. Not every school teacher is capable of teaching philosophy to young children as , besides the skills needed to engage the attention and understanding of young children, the teacher would also need a basic knowledge of philosophy. I don't know what modern teacher education is doing to address the need for the primary school teacher to know some philosophy.

However teachers do make efforts to introduce young children to ideas and ways of thinking which may be different from what they have been taught by family and immediate friends. Indeed this is one of the aims of child education. Plato is a giant among philosophers and certainly should be taught. Drama is probably as good a way as any to teach Platonic Forms to young children.

In a free country where there is liberal education it's important to ensure that children learn a balance of ideas. One of the ideas that is presented to children is how one can know. The problem with Nick's emphasis on Plato is that Nick believes himself to be privileged to know The Truth. A thoughtful child would question or be led to question how any individual could know ultimate reality.

Nevertheless ethics is a most important aspect of philosophy. Plato's theory of The Good as the top of the hierarchy of Forms influenced religions, and still does so. And so Plato would be an important component of the teaching of both religious education, and philosophy education.

I don;t know whether or not the Department of Education has included detailed curriculum content as to stipulate that Plato must be taught. I doubt it. However a teacher who has learned methods of teaching philosophy and has some basic knowledge of philosophy would be unlikely to not teach Plato.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:41 pmYou have made a good point there, Dontaskme. At university level the difference between vocational training and education becomes even more pronounced. Students who choose arts education instead of vocational training such as medicine or law, are probably going to earn less money. In schools, especially the primary and junior.

Being an undiagnosed autistic I was forced from school without finishing (note that Nick still thinks I am an privileged insider). I was too damaged for over a decade afterwards to catch up on my education and looked with awe at university scholars as being "the pinnacle".

Then three decades later my boss decides that I need a piece of paper and sends me off to do a post grad certificate (my thirty years work experience was apparently deemed equivalent to a three-year bachelor's degree). I was excited. The big league! Original thinking and research!

So, for my first assignment I performed original research based on my years of experience and insider knowledge and produced work that could have been of use to the industry rather than a sterile academic exercise. I was given 50% exactly, apparently because I did not refer enough to the simple syllabus that I'd flown way beyond without thinking. I spoke with the lecturer, who was excellent, and told her that next time I would regurgitate the course material to check the lie of the land. 80%.

At that point I realised that education is mostly about regurgitation, not thinking, aside from Masters and PhDs (apparently).

So yes, education's point is to produce maximally productive units, nothing more. This is what education has been rationalised to. Much of it is about money, and the rest is political. Universities cannot teach logical things because they are now deemed to be left wing and thus politically biased.

So I am not here to defend the indefensible, just to say that, whatever may be wrong with education, it will at least be infinitely better than anything devised by theists with axes to grind.

Theists had their chance, with control over education for thousands of years, not only opening the way for today's oppressive conformity in education but also guilty of gross long term abuse of trust / children.

It's time for theism to move aside and give the non religious a chance to show what they can do. I do not want to see children taught Nick and Trump's ideas - that women are lesser than men, mostly just good for housework and providing genitals to be grabbed by those too powerful to be refused. Abortion banned. Pro gun propaganda. Children taught religion in science classes, with information on evolution and climate change distorted or withheld.

While this old news is being re-debated we ignore the important questions such as, why is the west wrecking the lifestyles and opportunities of its people with such high levels of immigration when it's obvious that most work in the future will be done by robots?

The reason is that the prosperity of a nation is measured as GDP rather than GDP per capita. In other words, what matters are the big players, not the little ones. Another example: try discussing a relevant issue of concern with your local MP. Then consider your reception with the kind of reception that Rupert Murdoch or Bill Gates would receive.

The main game today is about institutions because institutions now run society purely for their own benefit. Humans are increasingly akin to expendable cells. In a survivalist group, the death of one person is a catastrophe. In a society of a billion, a few thousand deaths are not just inconsequential but it allows more opportunities for everyone else. Thus, immediately after the Great Plague, societies immediately prospered as never before.

Hence, those who think they are unlikely to be at the battle front (eg. many conservatives) think that starting a new war would be for the best because there's too many people. (If the war came close to them the would become instant peaceniks, rest assured).

So the problem with education is not "secularisation", it's rationalisation. Too many people consuming too much from an ever-shrinking resource base. So resources are rationed/rationalised - music and art are the first to go, plus all the interesting and inspiring side stories that bring a syllabus to life. Learn the stuff, pass your grades, welcome to the machine.

There is a big new age movement ATM - a shift in world consciousness. Facebook is full of it (so to speak). The story goes that people are becoming more spiritual, more aware, and this will form an irresistible tide to sweep away the blinkered and heartless bean counters. I too think that a subset of humans will become more deeply in touch with reality in the future, but that is some way off, and it will be only a minority. Most will remain undereducated, under-resourced and probably increasingly leaning towards law of the jungle as resource sqeueezes bite. To that end, religion may act as a salve for the miserable and refugee.

Trump gun fans imagine that they can protect their families from the "gummint", but the bean counters now have sophisticated intelligent weaponry. An intelligent, automatic tank will have far better senses, strategy and arms than any thousand terrorists/freedom fighters. The match is over but many would-be combatants are not yet aware. There is a new game called "flying under the radar" and it will be the game de jour for some time to come as monolithic, technically-enabled institutions become ever more controlling and intrusive.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:05 pm

Nick_A wrote:...
How can I respond to Arising concerning education. ...

By saying what you would teach and how?

Thank you, but Nick has avoided giving an answer to this question for dozens of pages so I don't expect anything to change now.

Very easy to find fault but another matter to come up with workable solutions.