Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:06 pm
Ohhh, you are smuggling in moral judgments there buddy.
Justify.
Justify.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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Justify.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:08 pm
Yes. That's exactly how I used the word: as a descriptor for a particular wrong-doing.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:03 pmrape is a word we use in that language to describe sexual wrongdoings of a certain type
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:10 pm
This...FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:04 pmYou cannot have the foundation of all morality being dependent on "If you intend on being moral, yeah, you do." That's circular.
A person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.
...is the foundation.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:14 pm
so....henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:08 pmYes. That's exactly how I used the word: as a descriptor for a particular wrong-doing.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:03 pmrape is a word we use in that language to describe sexual wrongdoings of a certain type
1... By defintion, rape is a wrongful act. This you have now agreed above.
2... To say that John raped Jane, one must already have judged John's activity wrongful (otherwise he simply had sex with Jane)
3... It is therefore redundant to argue that rape is wrong in the same way that nobody needs to argue that below is down or that left is not right.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:16 pm
But that second bit doesn't work. If a man is property that belongs to himself, then his slave is property that belongs to him too. He is still property that belongs to him, he just has two of those now.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:10 pmThis...FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:04 pmYou cannot have the foundation of all morality being dependent on "If you intend on being moral, yeah, you do." That's circular.
A person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.
...is the foundation.
It turns out that other guy who also "knew" he was his own property was unaware that this is conditional on defensive skills he lacks. He has now had his property taken away.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:22 pm
A person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:14 pmTo say that John raped Jane, one must *already have judged John's activity wrongful (otherwise he simply had sex with Jane)
John was wrong when he treated Jane as a commodity.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:23 pm
A person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:16 pmIf a man is property that belongs to himself, then his slave is property that belongs to him too.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:23 pm
so....henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:08 pmYes. That's exactly how I used the word: as a descriptor for a particular wrong-doing.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:03 pmrape is a word we use in that language to describe sexual wrongdoings of a certain type
1... By defintion, rape is a wrongful act. This you have now agreed above.
2... To say that John raped Jane, one must already have judged John's activity wrongful (otherwise he simply had sex with Jane)
3... It is therefore redundant to argue that rape is wrong in the same way that nobody needs to argue that below is down or that left is not right.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:24 pm
But that second bit doesn't work. If a man is property that belongs to himself, then his slave is property that belongs to him too. He is still property that belongs to him, he just has two of those now.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:10 pmThis...FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:04 pmYou cannot have the foundation of all morality being dependent on "If you intend on being moral, yeah, you do." That's circular.
A person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.
...is the foundation.
It turns out that other guy who also "knew" he was his own property was unaware that this is conditional on defensive skills he lacks. He has now had his property taken away.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:08 pmYes. That's exactly how I used the word: as a descriptor for a particular wrong-doing.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:03 pmrape is a word we use in that language to describe sexual wrongdoings of a certain type
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:23 pmA person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:16 pmIf a man is property that belongs to himself, then his slave is property that belongs to him too.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:38 pm
I am asking where this principle of reciprocity is getting smuggled in from. If, for the sake of argument, I decide that I am some sort of property with a circular belongs-to relationship with myself, that is all I must decide. I don't have to decide that you are my equal any more than I might decide that the strong rule the weak.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:44 pm*All dudes and dudettes, every where and when.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:26 pm
Two things then.
1. *Some dude knowing a thing.
2. Some ex-nihilo principle of reciprocity.
The same dude can know that "his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's" and then from that infer some other principle such as he ought to enlarge his property by **ruling over others.
**
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:40 pm
'nuff said.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:58 pmA person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons.
If you intend on being moral, yeah, you do.I don't have to decide that you are my equal any more than I might decide that the strong rule the weak.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:44 pm
You cannot have the foundation of all morality being dependent on "If you intend on being moral, yeah, you do." That's circular.henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:58 pmA person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons.
If you intend on being moral, yeah, you do.I don't have to decide that you are my equal any more than I might decide that the strong rule the weak.
Circular is bad. Stop it.
Your theory requires this reciprocity principle that you are aware of but try not to mention. When asked to explain where it comes from, you clearly cannot. Your theory is less good than you think it is. 'nuff said.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:44 pm
Fuck off, troll. The burden of proof is yours, and you say there are moral facts. So prove they exist, or fuck off back under the rock whence you crawled.Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:09 pmFuck off, troll. The burden is all on you to jsutify your definitions and laws. Here they are, before you. They stand as fact. The culmination of 13.8 years of evolution. Don't bother with nitpicking the exceptions, go for the mountain not the molehill.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:06 pm Here's an ejaculation from an intellectual retard, who's shtick is nothing but the subjectivity and re-definability of all identities and categories.
'If morality is subjective - we can re-define words AND the law however the fuck we want!'
Deny the consequent: we can't re-define words and the law - therefore: morality is objective.
Fucking moron.
It's on you to explain the systemic behaviour.
Why do you accept the definition?
Why does anyone accept the definition?
Why should anyone accept the definition?
Why do we accept the definition?
And please explain what the "false" in logic means, troll.
If there is no objective moral standard then the distinction between "true" and "false" is confusing me.
So it's true to say that you are Peter Holmes.
And it's false to say that you are Peter Holmes.
No time for fucking trolls. The time to be total dicks to skeptics has arrived.