The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 7:44 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 6:10 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 5:41 pm
As you have said yourself, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I've heard others say that line; but you'll find I've never said it.

I stand corrected.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 6:10 pmIf the subject is the Theory of Evolution, then the theory owes us its evidence, its demonstrations, its proofs.

You could do worse than starting here: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/the-orig ... ecies.html

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 6:10 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 4:55 pm Name one.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 5:41 pmAustralopithecus afarensis.

Well, I'm sure you Googled that. But okay.

As it happens, that's Lucy, the most famous human ancestor that I am aware of.

"Lucy is the nickname that discoverer Donald Johanson’s team gave to a partial skeleton of assembled bone fragments extracted from a large, mixed bone bed in 1974. (Johanson, D. 1976. Ethiopia Yields First “Family” of Early Man. National Geographic. 150 (6): 790–811.) Lucy is believed to belong to the species Australopithecus afarensis, represented by over 400 fossil specimens. However, many people are unaware that before naming the new species, Johanson and his colleague attributed the total fossil assemblage to two different creatures. They reported, “The collection suggests that Homo and Australopithecus coexisted.”2 In other words, the fossils consisted of a mixture of ape and human bones."

So I think this is probably the same Johanson you cite, isn't it?

Some of us were taught evolution, dontcha know?

Oh, I'm well aware of the circulation of the common myths. You can't miss them, if you went through public schooling. They're part of the necessary secular orthodoxy.

But you've got a bigger problem: the Theory of Evolution requires not just one fossil, nor 400, nor even 6,000, but millions of transitional fossils for every single "modern" species fossil we have. The alleged numbers, both of years and of failed adaptations, assure us it must be so. Evolution is supposed to run for an exceedingly long time, exceedingly gradually, and with many non-surviving mutations. So where are the fossils?

I can't imagine what you could misconstrue as archaeopteryx being a fraud.

Well, similarly, you can't get a whole evolutionary theory strand out of one fossil. You should expect millions, each with only the most miniscule mutative variation from one to the next. Where are the fossils?

However, we should also note that none of this controversy is particularly relevant to the OP here. The topic is whether or not there's a God; and Evolution has nothing at all to tell us about how life got here in the first place, or how this universe began. By all accounts, evolutionary or not, life happened comparatively late in the beginning, and human life later than all the other life. So the question that informs this discussion had long ago been resolved, one way or the other, before whatever you conceive of having happened to produce human beings ever happened.

Whether paleontological, geological, biological, chemical or physical, the entire planet is a testament and inviolable proof of those operations where Evolution has long ceased being a theory. As it turns out - somewhat ironically - it was evolution that allowed people in ages where nothing of the kind was known or even vaguely understood which provided the imagination for a god, manufactured to human specifications, to create humans in IT'S own image beginning with an original mating couple!

The logic seems excessively circular: Humans created a god in their own image then this improvised god returns the favor by creating humans in ITS image and thus the first mating couple was born, I meant created! The unique distinction of Adam & Eve is in having been created by a simple command of Let There Be, while the entire subsequent population of the planet had to be content with the travails of being born...or assembled after a short process of approximately nine months. After 6 or 7 weeks, the fetus grows a tail which gets absorbed back into the organism. If that didn't happen, we'd all be walking around with tails protruding from our rears, including Yahweh since we were made in ITS image.

It's at this stage that the story actually begins to make sense...after a few biblical revisions!

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 6:40 am
The logic seems excessively circular: Humans created a god in their own image then this improvised god returns the favor by creating humans in ITS image and thus the first mating couple was born, I meant created! The unique distinction of Adam & Eve is in having been created by a simple command of Let There Be, while the entire subsequent population of the planet had to be content with the travails of being born...or assembled after a short process of approximately nine months. After 6 or 7 weeks, the fetus grows a tail which gets absorbed back into the organism. If that didn't happen, we'd all be walking around with tails protruding from our rears, including Yahweh since we were made in ITS image.

It's at this stage that the story actually begins to make sense...after a few biblical revisions!

Plot twist. God has no image. An image cannot be made in the image of an image. Images can only be made of the imageless. How is an image even known to exist without God’s imageless mirror to reflect it?

So yes, it really does seem like the story is inseparable from the greatest holy ghostiest written book, read by yours truly.

Images reflected are only temporal comings and going’s subject to revision, but the imageless is eternal.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 6:10 pm "...many people are unaware that before naming the new species, Johanson and his colleague attributed the total fossil assemblage to two different creatures. They reported, “The collection suggests that Homo and Australopithecus coexisted.”2 In other words, the fossils consisted of a mixture of ape and human bones."

So I think this is probably the same Johanson you cite, isn't it?

The authors of that piece, Brian Thomas and Chris Rupe, (https://www.icr.org/article/busting-myth-about-lucy for anyone who enjoys a laugh) might have PhDs in paleobiochemistry and earth sciences respectively, but they know fück all about logic. I'm sure even you, Mr Can, can work out why their conclusion isn't valid.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 7:59 pmOh, I'm well aware of the circulation of the common myths.

Well yes, RE was also on the curriculum.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 7:59 pmBut you've got a bigger problem: the Theory of Evolution requires not just one fossil, nor 400, nor even 6,000, but millions of transitional fossils for every single "modern" species fossil we have.

An argument from ignorance is not a problem. Even without fossils, evolution is a better explanation for the diversity of living things and the genetic links between them than a god. Anyone who insists that evolution is a myth belongs on the same evolutionary branch as flat earthers.

So I guess there must be a God, then. We can thank God for the world we live in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmrAcfoVKNI


I met God in a car in a dream in Angerside
And I was very unkind
I said "You locked us out of the forest
And gave us a mind"
I came upon you when I thought I'd lost you
And I cried "My God I thought I'd lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
He said "My mind is overflowing
With tales to tell
I've been looking around this world I created
It's going so well"
I looked, I stared, I said "I think I've lost you"
Cried out "My God I think I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
I stared into your face
The waves deep and strong
Your fall from grace
A God so far gone
Remind me not to pray to you
Let my flailing arms smash your face
Why should I kill you?
I thought of all the martyrs, the religious wars
And all of the millions dying for a nobody cause
Sitting in an eight foot by eight foot cell I cried"
You know this treatment isn't human
"Up to my waist in the slime I swear I'm dazed
I hope that I am not forgotten
I came upon you when I thought I'd lost you
And I cried "My God I know I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
"You know I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 9:56 am

Religion addresses the first cause, and the origin of the universe.
Evolution is about process, after first cause.
Apples and oranges.

According to evolution, what is the logical first cause and origin of the universe?

(continued)

Come to think of it, as they say, The Holy Bible communicates happenings within the range of human comprehension of processes, which is often left to an explanation of “miracle,” such as the miracle of dark matter and energy that causes comprehension of reality to conform to the known ... which is actually a flat earther activity, although with science well-justified of course.

If AI can only offer a more complete understanding of processes, without addressing first cause, philosophically it won't change much other than known (and theorized) probabilities as justification for possibilities.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 9:56 am An argument from ignorance is not a problem.

It's not an "argument from ignorance." It's an argument from knowledge. We know there are nowhere near enough fossils for the story we're being sold. That's manifest.

But it's also irrelevant to the present question. You could be a Theistic Evolutionist. Why, then, do you choose to be an Atheist?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 10:10 am So I guess there must be a God, then. We can thank God for the world we live in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmrAcfoVKNI


I met God in a car in a dream in Angerside
And I was very unkind
I said "You locked us out of the forest
And gave us a mind"
I came upon you when I thought I'd lost you
And I cried "My God I thought I'd lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
He said "My mind is overflowing
With tales to tell
I've been looking around this world I created
It's going so well"
I looked, I stared, I said "I think I've lost you"
Cried out "My God I think I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
I stared into your face
The waves deep and strong
Your fall from grace
A God so far gone
Remind me not to pray to you
Let my flailing arms smash your face
Why should I kill you?
I thought of all the martyrs, the religious wars
And all of the millions dying for a nobody cause
Sitting in an eight foot by eight foot cell I cried"
You know this treatment isn't human
"Up to my waist in the slime I swear I'm dazed
I hope that I am not forgotten
I came upon you when I thought I'd lost you
And I cried "My God I know I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
"You know I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you

Of course there must be a God. There’s a you , you is. So how did you get here, how do you exist is what you should be thinking about.

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 10:21 am Religion addresses the first cause, and the origin of the universe.
Evolution is about process, after first cause.
Apples and oranges.

According to evolution, what is the logical first cause and origin of the universe?

You said it yourself: "Evolution is about process, after first cause." First cause is not within the purview of evolutionary theory. As Mr Can alludes to, there is no conflict with the idea of a god being the first cause and evolution being part of the plan.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 1:48 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 9:56 am An argument from ignorance is not a problem.

It's not an "argument from ignorance." It's an argument from knowledge. We know there are nowhere near enough fossils for the story we're being sold.

Again: Even without fossils, evolution is a better explanation for the diversity of living things and the genetic links between them than a god. So Mr Can, if fossils are so crucial, where are the bones of Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, David or Jesus? Oh wait, the last one is supposed to have ascended into heaven, and presumably took his bones with him; I'll give you a pass on that one; but the other lot? It seems to me there are nowhere near enough fossils for the story we're being sold.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 1:48 pmBut it's also irrelevant to the present question. You could be a Theistic Evolutionist. Why, then, do you choose to be an Atheist?

As I have told you before, I do not accept your creationist straw man definitions. I am an atheist because I am not a theist. Why do I choose to be an atheist? Well, Mr Can; there are no fossils to support your story.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 2:22 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 1:48 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 9:56 am An argument from ignorance is not a problem.

It's not an "argument from ignorance." It's an argument from knowledge. We know there are nowhere near enough fossils for the story we're being sold.

Again: Even without fossils, evolution is a better explanation for the diversity of living things and the genetic links between them than a god.

How is it "better," except that you consider it aesthetically more pleasing to you? It doesn't account for more. It doesn't even account for nearly as much.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 1:48 pmBut it's also irrelevant to the present question. You could be a Theistic Evolutionist. Why, then, do you choose to be an Atheist?

I am an atheist because I am not a theist. [/quote] An interestingly evasive response.

I suspect you don't know nearly as much about the fossil record as you'd like me to suppose you do. But it's irrelevant again: you could choose to be a Theistic Evolutionist, go with whatever you think the fossil record to show, and keep all your whole faith in that theory. So why is it you're opting for Atheism instead, since Atheism can't even suggest any answer to why the universe exists, and surely falls afoul of the no-infinite-regress-of-causes logic, empirical observations and mathematics?

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 2:19 pm First cause is not within the purview of evolutionary theory.

Absolutely correct. So the entire Evolutionist argument offers nothing relevant to the present question, the OP.

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 2:03 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 10:10 am So I guess there must be a God, then. We can thank God for the world we live in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmrAcfoVKNI


I met God in a car in a dream in Angerside
And I was very unkind
I said "You locked us out of the forest
And gave us a mind"
I came upon you when I thought I'd lost you
And I cried "My God I thought I'd lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
He said "My mind is overflowing
With tales to tell
I've been looking around this world I created
It's going so well"
I looked, I stared, I said "I think I've lost you"
Cried out "My God I think I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
I stared into your face
The waves deep and strong
Your fall from grace
A God so far gone
Remind me not to pray to you
Let my flailing arms smash your face
Why should I kill you?
I thought of all the martyrs, the religious wars
And all of the millions dying for a nobody cause
Sitting in an eight foot by eight foot cell I cried"
You know this treatment isn't human
"Up to my waist in the slime I swear I'm dazed
I hope that I am not forgotten
I came upon you when I thought I'd lost you
And I cried "My God I know I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you
"You know I've lost you"
Lost you
Lost you

Of course there must be a God. There’s a you , you is. So how did you get here, how do you exist is what you should be thinking about.

Well that settles it then. There must be a God. Can't argue with an argument that someone conjures out of vague platitudes.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2026 8:31 pm
Well that settles it then. There must be a God. Can't argue with an argument that someone conjures out of vague platitudes.

Amazing really, how you’ve conjured up a you. Namely a “ someone “
How do you think you did that? Do you have the recipe ?
Do you know how you conjured you into existence…if you do then would you be willing to share the recipe?

If you don’t know how you conjured you into existence, then all you’ll know is the shadowland of the vague.