Philosophy Now Forum

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:53 am Status of the Magma Energy Project
NASA Astrophysics Data System (ADS)
Dunn, J. C.
The current magma energy project is assessing the engineering feasibility of extracting thermal energy directly from crustal magma bodies. The estimated size of the U.S. resource (50,000 to 500,000 quads) suggests a considerable potential impact on future power generation. In a previous seven-year study, we concluded that there are no insurmountable barriers that would invalidate the magma energy concept. Several concepts for drilling, energy extraction, and materials survivability were successfully demonstrated in Kilauea Iki lava lake, Hawaii. The present program is addressing the engineering design problems associated with accessing magma bodies and extracting thermal energy for power generation. The normal stages for development of a geothermal resource are being investigated: exploration, drilling and completions, production, and surface power plant design. Current status of the engineering program and future plans are described.

https://www.science.gov/topicpages/m/ma ... gy+project

p.s. A quad is a quadrillion BTU. Global energy demand is approx 500 quad.

I suggest developing magma energy as a global good initially, with the energy used specifically for carbon capture, desalination, irrigation and recycling - while building capacity to transition from fossil fuels. This is an image of all the volcanoes in the Pacific Ring of Fire - and as you can see, geographically, they're everywhere.

Wow, your 'everywhere' is a LOT different to "others" 'everywhere'.

How a leading climate scientist stays hopeful about our future
Daisy Dunne.

Climate scientist Professor Katharine Hayhoe gives on average 100 talks to people around the world every year, according to her own calculations. At the end of her (mostly virtual) engagements, she is always asked the same question: What gives you hope?

“I could be speaking to students at Cambridge or a senior citizens home, it’s always right there at the top of people’s minds,” she tells The Independent.

“We’re desperate for hope. If you go to any mainstream media outlet, the headlines are depressing, scary, anxious, infuriating and raging. Humans can’t keep that up long term.”

In the face of news about stronger hurricanes, melting ice sheets and thawing permafrost, the Canadian-born scientist has “made a practice of hope”. She searches and shares stories about floating solar farms in China and river-fired power in remote Arctic villages. She spends time talking at rallies and events calling for greater action on the climate crisis.

Hope runs as a central theme throughout her new book: Saving Us: A Climate Scientist’s Case for Hope and Healing in a Divided World. The book explores the politicisation of the climate crisis from the US to the UK, increasing levels of climate anxiety among ordinary people and what she views to be the solution: finding hope and starting conversations.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ho ... d=msedgntp

This is the Aral Sea - where a lot of the world's cotton is grown.



Formerly the fourth largest lake in the world with an area of 68,000 km2 (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea began shrinking in the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects. By 1997, it had declined to 10% of its original size. Piecemeal efforts like floating solar farms in China, are not going to solve this. It takes 10,000 liters of water to produce 1 kilo of cotton, meaning it takes about 2,700 liters to make 1 cotton t-shirt.

This is a diagram of a desalination plant.



It's a massively energy intensive process; requiring approximately 16 kwh per 1000 liters.
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/sherer2/

That's sixteen - 1,000 watt appliances running for an hour, to create 1000 liters of fresh water. Or sixteen - 1000 watt appliances running for 2.7 hours, to produce the water, to produce the cotton for one t-shirt.

Magma energy is our only hope! Wind, solar, insulation, circularity, carbon taxes etc, are not going to solve this problem. We need limitless, clean, base load power from magma energy - to power systems like desalination, irrigation, recycling, carbon capture and storage. That's real hope. Without that power, all our efforts are mere apologetics.

...

Dead birds and fish washing up on California beach after massive oil spill
Gustaf Kilander 53 mins ago

Dead birds and fish are washing up on a California beach after a major oil spill. Thousands of gallons of oil have pumped into the Pacific Ocean between the Huntington Beach pier and Newport Beach south of Los Angeles this weekend. City officials announced early on Sunday that 126,000 gallons of oil had entered the water following a leak at an offshore oil production operation. The exact cause of the leak and who owns the pipeline remains unclear. The affected area covers 5.8 nautical miles.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/de ... d=msedgntp

Oh dear, I hope it doesn't catch fire!

Industry experts say Britain should lift fracking ban to help alleviate energy crisis and secure future gas supplies
Daily Mail City & Finance Reporter

Britain should lift the fracking ban to help alleviate the energy crisis and secure future gas supplies, according to industry experts. Ministers announced a moratorium on the process in 2019, after a scientific study found it was too difficult to predict if it would trigger small earthquakes.

Last week Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng said he did not think fracking was the answer.



Fracking involves shooting a mixture of sand, water and chemicals into shale rocks to crack them and release the gas.

Supporters argue that rules around tremors had been stricter than in other countries and that developing UK shale reserves could help wean Britain off imports.

Britain has a sprawling deposit of gas in shale rock called the Bowland Formation. Katherine Gray, spokesman at UK Onshore Oil & Gas, said: 'It is bizarre when just a mile under northern and central England lies a gas resource so immense that if we extracted just 10 per cent of it, we could meet the UK's gas demand for 50 years.'

Francis Egan, chief executive of Cuadrilla, said: 'Importing shale gas by ship from all corners of the globe, whilst leaving our own shale gas resources unexplored and undeveloped, is symptomatic of the misjudged approach that has led us to this point.'

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/i ... d=msedgntp

"Francis Egan, chief executive of Cuadrilla, said: 'blah, blah ...symptomatic of the misjudged approach that has led us to this point."

At least we can agree on that. The question is, misjudged in what way? Given that over 40 years ago, NASA conducted a seven year study demonstrating that in the US alone, there's upto 1000 times global energy demand available from clean magma energy, I would suggest that the misjudgement is not failing to poison the groundwater of the north of England with carcinogenic compounds, in order to poison the air with carbon and methane, just to keep the lights on while waiting to die from climate change!

Status of the Magma Energy Project
NASA Astrophysics Data System (ADS)
Dunn, J. C.
The current magma energy project is assessing the engineering feasibility of extracting thermal energy directly from crustal magma bodies. The estimated size of the U.S. resource (50,000 to 500,000 quads) suggests a considerable potential impact on future power generation. In a previous seven-year study, we concluded that there are no insurmountable barriers that would invalidate the magma energy concept. Several concepts for drilling, energy extraction, and materials survivability were successfully demonstrated in Kilauea Iki lava lake, Hawaii. The present program is addressing the engineering design problems associated with accessing magma bodies and extracting thermal energy for power generation. The normal stages for development of a geothermal resource are being investigated: exploration, drilling and completions, production, and surface power plant design. Current status of the engineering program and future plans are described.

https://www.science.gov/topicpages/m/ma ... gy+project

(A quad is a quadrillion BTU. Global energy demand is approx 500 quad.)

...

Rolls-Royce in talks with US tech giants over using mini nuclear plants to power data centres
Francesca Washtell

...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technol ... d=msedgntp

Nuclear proliferation in a world falling apart from climate change?
Rather than develop magma energy, they've known about for over 40 years!
Is it insanity or is it evil? They are very difficult to tell apart!

Net zero targets mean people will be ‘poorer, colder and eating insects’ warn Tory MPs
Poppy Wood

Tory MPs have criticised Boris Johnson’s climate pledges and accused the Government of imposing additional costs on the poorest Britons in the name of going “green”.

Steve Baker, former Brexit minister and chair of the influential Covid Recovery Group, said the Government’s 2050 target for achieving net zero carbon emissions means the public are “going to be poorer, they’re going to be colder… and they may be eating insects for protein”.

Speaking at a Conservative Party Conference fringe event held by right-wing think tank the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) on Monday, he accused ministers of prioritising “hand-waving desires and ambitions” over being honest about the financial burden of efforts to reduce climate emissions.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ne ... d=msedgntp

Not necessarily!

Status of the Magma Energy Project
NASA Astrophysics Data System (ADS)
Dunn, J. C.
The current magma energy project is assessing the engineering feasibility of extracting thermal energy directly from crustal magma bodies. The estimated size of the U.S. resource (50,000 to 500,000 quads) suggests a considerable potential impact on future power generation. In a previous seven-year study, we concluded that there are no insurmountable barriers that would invalidate the magma energy concept. Several concepts for drilling, energy extraction, and materials survivability were successfully demonstrated in Kilauea Iki lava lake, Hawaii. The present program is addressing the engineering design problems associated with accessing magma bodies and extracting thermal energy for power generation. The normal stages for development of a geothermal resource are being investigated: exploration, drilling and completions, production, and surface power plant design. Current status of the engineering program and future plans are described.

https://www.science.gov/topicpages/m/ma ... gy+project

p.s. A quad is a quadrillion BTU. Global energy demand is approx 500 quad.

Developing magma energy as a global good initially, with the energy used specifically for carbon capture, desalination, irrigation and recycling - while building capacity to transition from fossil fuels, could achieve net zero worldwide by 2045. And unless it is worldwide, then you'd have us working two jobs to keep the lights on, and eating bugs for nothing!



(Above 450 volcanoes - Pacific Ring of Fire. 1500 volcanoes worldwide.)

Copied and pasted. Reuters 2017.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-icel ... SKBN17C17E

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:58 am Copied and pasted. Reuters 2017.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-icel ... SKBN17C17E

That's from 4 years ago, and talks about an interconnector from Iceland to the UK!

"Icelink is a proposed electricity interconnector between Iceland and Great Britain. At 1,000 to 1,200 km (620 to 750 miles), the 800–1,200 MW HVDC link would be the longest sub-sea power interconnector in the world."

It hasn't been built. But look at this:

The world's longest under-sea electricity cable, transferring green [hydroelectric] power between Norway and the UK, has begun operation. The 450-mile (725km) cable connects Blyth in Northumberland with the Norwegian village of Kvilldal. At full 1,400 megawatt capacity it will import enough hydro-power to supply 1.4 million homes, National Grid said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58772572

That's from two days ago.

The original proof of concept by NASA, for magma energy - was over 40 years ago. The Krafla magma testbed website makes out like they're a 10 year old boy who found porn mags in the woods! (That's a joke from 40 years ago!)

"We stand at the threshold of obtaining a new kind of knowledge about magma in Earth’s crust. The unexpected but successful encounters with rhyolite magma by geothermal drilling in Krafla Caldera, Iceland (see the video to the left) open the door to direct exploration of hydrothermal/magma coupling and the transition from solid rock to magma itself. For scientific drilling into this unexplored domain, there is literally no place on Earth better suited."

https://www.kmt.is/

It does not honestly reflect the state of knowledge. They're LYING - while taxing people into poverty, and building silly windmills. Why? To keep fossil fuels in business? I don't suppose the inventor the refrigerator lost a lot of sleep about the iceman, or the inventor of the motorcar lost sleep about blacksmiths and farriers. Or the light bulb - and candlemakers etc, etc. The planet bursting into flames around us is telling us we need to move past fossil fuels. Magma energy can more than meet that demand - and they've known that for over 40 years.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:43 pm I don't suppose the inventor of the refrigerator lost a lot of sleep about the iceman, or the inventor of the motorcar lost sleep about blacksmiths and farriers. Or the light bulb - and candlemakers etc, etc. The planet bursting into flames around us is telling us we need to move past fossil fuels. Magma energy can more than meet that demand - and they've known that for over 40 years.

This comment is not for the poster (Vitruvius), because his mind is already made up and it's not my business to change it. But for others, who may read this comment and suspect there is something a bit off-kilter with it, the comparison between the successful development of past technology and the wishful thinking for not-yet developed technology is misleading.

Refrigeration, automobiles, electric lighting, and almost all other successful technological developments did not come about as a result of political propaganda and programs, but individuals who thought of a way to doing something and did the hard work of creating those methods. No one had to promote the idea of refrigeration, automobiles, heavier-than-air human flight, radios, lasers, or refrigeration. No laws were required to ensure the implementation of such technology or to finance their development. Their success was totally due to the fact they actually worked and and could be understood by anyone once invented.

There is nothing stopping anyone from developing any method of producing energy. There is no law or agency preventing anyone from developing "magma energy," or, "geo-thermal energy." Develop it, and if it really is a viable solution to anything, it will be embraced just as refrigerators, cars, electric lights, and indoor plumbing were embraced. It won't have to be promoted or forced through by any government program.

Of course that is the real difference between true technological development and social-engineering. Real technological development requires no programs or campaigns or agendas to put over, and certainly do not require any government coercive agency to make it happen.

So the question must always be asked of anyone attempting to promote some personal hobby-horse of a technical development, "how do you intend for this development to be achieved? If it is really good and right, why aren't you developing it yourself, or, is what you really intend, to force someone else to develop it.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:43 pm I don't suppose the inventor of the refrigerator lost a lot of sleep about the iceman, or the inventor of the motorcar lost sleep about blacksmiths and farriers. Or the light bulb - and candlemakers etc, etc. The planet bursting into flames around us is telling us we need to move past fossil fuels. Magma energy can more than meet that demand - and they've known that for over 40 years.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:42 pmThis comment is not for the poster (Vitruvius), because his mind is already made up and it's not my business to change it.

You couldn't change my mind if you had a gun to my head.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:42 pmBut for others, who may read this comment and suspect there is something a bit off-kilter with it, the comparison between the successful development of past technology and the wishful thinking for not-yet developed technology is misleading. Refrigeration, automobiles, electric lighting, and almost all other successful technological developments did not come about as a result of political propaganda and programs,

That's incorrect. A lot of research and development is publicly funded. The university system, government grants, military tech, tax breaks, and so on at the R+D phase. As your post says nothing else, and is all based on that false premise, I've deleted the rest. You don't know what you're talking about which is why you can't change my mind. Don't waste your time taking pot shots at me - read something instead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_re ... evelopment

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:42 pm

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:43 pm I don't suppose the inventor of the refrigerator lost a lot of sleep about the iceman, or the inventor of the motorcar lost sleep about blacksmiths and farriers. Or the light bulb - and candlemakers etc, etc. The planet bursting into flames around us is telling us we need to move past fossil fuels. Magma energy can more than meet that demand - and they've known that for over 40 years.

This comment is not for the poster (Vitruvius), because his mind is already made up and it's not my business to change it. But for others, who may read this comment and suspect there is something a bit off-kilter with it, the comparison between the successful development of past technology and the wishful thinking for not-yet developed technology is misleading.

Refrigeration, automobiles, electric lighting, and almost all other successful technological developments did not come about as a result of political propaganda and programs, but individuals who thought of a way to doing something and did the hard work of creating those methods. No one had to promote the idea of refrigeration, automobiles, heavier-than-air human flight, radios, lasers, or refrigeration. No laws were required to ensure the implementation of such technology or to finance their development. Their success was totally due to the fact they actually worked and and could be understood by anyone once invented.

There is nothing stopping anyone from developing any method of producing energy. There is no law or agency preventing anyone from developing "magma energy," or, "geo-thermal energy." Develop it, and if it really is a viable solution to anything, it will be embraced just as refrigerators, cars, electric lights, and indoor plumbing were embraced. It won't have to be promoted or forced through by any government program.

Of course that is the real difference between true technological development and social-engineering. Real technological development requires no programs or campaigns or agendas to put over, and certainly do not require any government coercive agency to make it happen.

So the question must always be asked of anyone attempting to promote some personal hobby-horse of a technical development, "how do you intend for this development to be achieved? If it is really good and right, why aren't you developing it yourself, or, is what you really intend, to force someone else to develop it.

The problem with magma energy technology is unlike r and d of bicycles, refrigerators, electric lights and most of those machineries. Magma energy is more comparable with the Victorian rebuilding of London sewerage, a huge project that could not be financed by a man, his family, and friends.