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Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:42 am
by Lacewing
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 am Lace wrote, up-thread...

Notice how dividing everything and everyone into 'sides' to blame and war against, only perpetuates imbalance.

My question, inspired by her comment: Are there any principles worth dyin' for?
So why were you asking ME this? I don't see how it follows what I said. You didn't comment on what I said. Did you agree/disagree, and can you say why?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 amI agree [with Alexis]. We have to define the world. We're driven to it. Such defining orders the world for us. This ordering is crucial for us, so we must take care this ordering is accurate, that it aligns with what is (what is true). Some work to recognize truth (what is) and others are happy to make stuff up. The first, the truth, is principle, The second, made-up stuff, are stories. Some times truth and stories overlap and in doing so are both enriched: truth is made more accessible and stories are grounded.
Okay, I can see that. There are lots of questions, however, about 'what is' and 'what is true'. There are bad principles, just as there are good ones. Same with stories. Depends on context and people and all sorts of stuff. Sometimes truth and stories overlap and are distorted in the process. I just think it's valuable, Henry, to acknowledge that there is a lot in play... and a lot at work... and it varies from place to place. So, if we want to talk about setting up order and being accurate, we have to GET CLEAR... which we clearly are not! Most of us don't know what the fuck is going on, we just pretend that we do, or we hope that we don't die from it.

All of this pie-in-the-sky discussion about re-defining our foundation has been done over and over and over. Maybe we're missing something. How can we create with new clarity when we're still repeating old patterns? That's what my quote up above was related to. We don't even recognize how out-of-balance we are... and we're pretending we can peddle across the Grand Canyon on a tightrope.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 amThe modern problem: all truth has been absorbed by bad stories and where such assimilation isn't possible truth is cast out. Truth is mere element of story (when it's present) not the undergirding of story (as it should be).
Well, I can agree with that! Stories are typically more important to people than truth. So much so, that they re-write truth to fit into the story... especially if they're identified with it somehow. This happens everywhere... and this is why it's valuable to question EVERYTHING... especially the things we believe to be true. I think we can question things without turning into soldiers for an opposition, which would blind us to our own stories. Rather, stay neutral... like doing a third-party assessment of everything. :D
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:51 amMy question Are there any principles worth dyin' for? points in the direction of this problem. No sane man will die for a story, but folks will die defending or preserving the truth, the principles found in some stories, or better yet, for the naked, unadorned principle.
Some people will. Some people won't. I have principles, and I think they're valuable. I'm not really imagining any reason why I would choose to die for them because they do not represent the complete picture to me. There's always more to consider, in my view. I make each decision based on a combination of factors. I usually do fairly well -- and if I don't, it's not catastrophic (thank goodness).

I think clarity is more important than principles. It's too easy (it seems to me) for we human beings to distort principles and foundations and everything else we touch and imagine. I prefer to take a step back, and allow clarity to enter into it -- setting aside all of my controlling notions, as needed. That has informed me and guided me in astounding ways. So, what's wrong with that? 8)

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:57 am
by henry quirk
THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM!

Yes, it is. This obligates me to respond to every one who pipes in?


Do you call it 'butting in' when YOU interject a comment/question into a discussion?

I do, And becuz I'm buttin' in, I have no expectations that anyone will respond. Certainly, I don't demand it.


But if someone says, "I'm not seeing where you provided a reputable or clear source of information," then you tell them you already gave it and they can go look it up.

For a year and a half I offered links, articles, citations, all ignored or dismissed or roundly rejected (without any of the info being assessed on its merits). You, yourself, dismissed a literal warehouse of info, accessible thru one friggin' link, becuz some sketchy fact checker told you to, not becuz you assessed the info yourself. And you'd have me do it again....for you?

Nope, not bloody likely.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:28 am
by henry quirk
I have principles, and I think they're valuable. I'm not really imagining any reason why I would choose to die for them because they do not represent the complete picture to me.

Man is free (self-directing, self-responsible, self-reliant). This is a truth about him. It is a principle (a fundamental law or truth or fact from which others are derived). This freedom is natural to him. It's part of his substance. It can't be separated out from him. It isn't granted to him by other men. We can codify it, but never create it. We can violate it, but never destroy it.

Man is his own. This is a truth about him. It is a principle. This self-possession, this ownness, is natural to him. It's part of his substance. It can't be separated out from him. It isn't granted to him by other men. We can codify it, but never create it. We can violate it, but never destroy it.

Would you fight to defend these principles? If the choice was, as the expression goes, dying on your feet or living on your knees, which would you choose?

Where is your line in the sand? At what point do you say this far and no more?

Again...

We have to define the world. And our definition of the world (existence, our being here, life, awareness) will then inevitably bring forth a response, or an answer, in what is necessary to do, in how it is necessary to live.

...necessary to do, necessary to live...

Seen thru this lens: all things are not equal, there is no gray to hunker down in. A person can't evade committing (so he best make sure what he commits to is real).


I think clarity is more important than principles.

By definition: a principle is unambiguous, is intrinsically clear. There's no reason to choose one over the other.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:25 am
by Age
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 am Alexis, thank you again for your thoughtful response. I appreciate your honesty.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:02 pm I am a person who has felt the need to react against what I perceive to be immense waves of decadence and a 'liberal rot' that has been identified by some, admittedly conservative-tending, intellectuals of the European right.
Okay. I cannot speak to that directly. Rather, it has been my experience that rot is typically across the board, not just on one side or another. So I would be wary of seeing it (or defining it) in only one direction. Personally, I think that men continually choosing battle-sides (of one kind or another) has been a disaster for humankind. A war-like mindset just keeps creating war and all of its destruction, hate, and blindness.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:02 pmMy effort has been (it still is really) to discover, to uncover, something like a 'bedrock' within ideas. A sure and certain platform within metaphysics upon which it would be possible to construct an existential edifice. That is a dramatic (perhaps ridiculous) way to put it yet I am serious.
Is it because you want to 'know'? What if there were no chance of knowing such a thing? Does value only come from thinking one knows?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:02 pm All peoples attempt and I think will always attempt to develop a metaphysical sense of the world in which they find themselves. When one examines different metaphysical systems one sees pretty clearly that this is so. We have to define the world. And our definition of the world (existence, our being here, life, awareness) will then inevitably bring forth a response, or an answer, in what is necessary to do, in how it is necessary to live. One way or the other we will define a metaphysics.
Yet there are many different definitions and answers, yes? Is it a goal to 'find' or establish the best one? What if such thinking demonstrates that we are actually too misaligned to ever have such clarity and completeness as we desire? Maybe we have to give up the questing -- with all of its expectations and needs -- in order to see and accept what is already perfect. In another words... towards this aim, there is nothing to 'do', but there is more to 'see'. Perhaps all of our mental noise and ideas are obstructing more of the very understanding we seek.

"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."
Talk about one thinking 'they know'.

The ACTUAL Universe is far simpler than most imagine, and, the Universe is also far easier to understand than most imagine, in the days when this was written.

But most believe that they already know what the ultimate truth is, as evidenced and shown above in "lacewing's" writings.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 am To want to dominate ideas/answers -- to claim to know the ultimate truth -- even when it's clearly impossible and a fantasy -- is like playing 'god'.
The contradiction here is BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 am Lots of humans (mostly men) seem intrigued to play that game.
Spoken as if one gender does this more, yet it is the one of the opposite gender who is blatantly doing this here.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 am Talk about 'immense waves of decadence and rot' :lol:! Will we move on from it in my lifetime, I wonder?... I hope so.
Well, obviously, when you stop doing the rot, then we can move on from it.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 am Perhaps men were set up to command and supposedly know such impossible answers (even if they had to make it up)... just as women were set up to take a more subservient position and be preyed upon -- a horrible and ignorant path for humankind. Perhaps we can learn from it.
When, and if, you stop being so closed and start looking at all of the possibilities, then you will see thee actual Truth of things.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:05 pm
by Belinda
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:24 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:44 pm
That's like saying, "I did not say 'Queen Elizabeth'; I said 'Lizzie.'"

But worse.
It is not the same!
I said that.

It's worse.
Queen Elizabeth, unlike Jesus of Nazareth , has not been deified.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:48 pm
by Immanuel Can
Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:24 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:21 pm
It is not the same!
I said that.

It's worse.
Queen Elizabeth, unlike Jesus of Nazareth , has not been deified.
"Deify" means "to raise to deity, from a lower inherent state." Jesus Christ is already Lord...he always has been, even for those people who don't know it yet.

You can't "deify God."

But which is worse: to insult Queen Elizabeth, or to insult God?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:38 pm
by owl of Minerva
Emmanuel Can:

Owl Minerva wrote:
The name Jesus refers to his humanity. The Christ refers to his consciousness.

Emmanuel Can:
You've been misinformed, I fear. "Christ" means "anointed One," which is identical with the Jewish synonym "Messiah." You can find that out with any simple Greek concordance. Or here, with something even as ordinary as Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_(title)

Whoever told you the wrong thing was trying to make something fit his narrative, not explaining the word itself.”
……………………………………………………………….

This is taken out of context. Nothing in my post indicated that Christ was not an anointed One or not in correspondence with the Jewish synonym “Messiah,” in both his humanity and divine consciousness. The son of man (humanity) and the son of God (divinity) incorporates both.

Try not to take an entire post out of context by taking a portion of it and making a controversy out of it.

The early Christian church accepted the doctrine of reincarnation; expounded by the Gnostics; accepted by Clement of Alexandria; the celebrated Origen; and St. Jerome. It was declared a heresy in A.D. 553 by the Second Council of Constantinople, apparently the Pope at the time was absent. It left Christians with the concept of a special creation in a human form for the first time which contradicts original Christian teaching and separates it from the East where Avatars strive over many, many lifetimes to reach liberation and then, with divine dispensation, incarnate to help humanity.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:12 pm
by Immanuel Can
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:38 pm Emmanuel Can:

Owl Minerva wrote:
The name Jesus refers to his humanity. The Christ refers to his consciousness.

Emmanuel Can:
You've been misinformed, I fear. "Christ" means "anointed One," which is identical with the Jewish synonym "Messiah." You can find that out with any simple Greek concordance. Or here, with something even as ordinary as Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_(title)

Whoever told you the wrong thing was trying to make something fit his narrative, not explaining the word itself.”
……………………………………………………………….

This is taken out of context.
I wasn't, actually; I saw what you said. You wrote:

Similar to Krishna in the Hindu religion....Cosmic consciousness,

It has nothing whatsoever to do with "Krishna" or the Hindu idea of "Krishna consciousness." The two are totally unassociated ideas, untited only in the interests of the "Krishna" narrative. Sorry.
Nothing in my post indicated that Christ was not an anointed One or not in correspondence with the Jewish synonym “Messiah,” in both his humanity and divine consciousness. The son of man (humanity) and the son of God (divinity) incorporates both.

Suddenly, both Hinduism and Krishna have disappeared from your explanation here. I wonder why... :?
The early Christian church accepted the doctrine of reincarnation; expounded by the Gnostics
Actually they did not. You're confused between the wanna-bes and the actual Christians, I can see.

And I can tell you for sure that Gnostics are not, and have never been Christians. It's a common error, but not less an error, for all that. Modern Gnostics won't like that, of course, but it doesn't change the facts. The problem is doctrinal and profound. Their fundamental hatred of the Creator and of the flesh makes it utterly impossible for them to be, in any sense, "Christian".

They are, however, an excellent example of people who seize upon the name "Christian" illegitimately, and use it for the purposes of misleading people. And that, I admit, is a serious problem for anybody trying to understand Christianity from a merely outside perspective. It's not until one drills down into the actual doctrine, rather than taking the self-identification of people as "Christians" at face value, that one is going to see how implausible the Gnostic claim to association with Christianity actually is.

However, there was an extended historical time when Gnosticism did try very ardently to sell itself to Christians, and as "Christianity," though solid proof exists that the Gnostic beliefs existed long before Christianity itself ever actually was formulated. In their canon, as time went on, Gnostics created numerous writings that were designed to replicate Christian language and concepts, but to co-opt them to the Gnostic narrative...thereby, hopefully also drawing away Christians to the Gnostic view. And this collection of texts still confuses the marginally-informed, who tend to take any claim of being "Christian" as real. In fact, I have many of these Gnostic texts right beside me as I type, on my shelf. I've read them, looked at their origins and historiography, investigated their doctrine, compared it to Scripture, and found them totally incapable of fitting into any genuinely Christian worldview. And that is, in fact, what Christians generally also have decided is the case: Gnosticism is not Christianity.

But also you're right to associate Hinduism and Gnosticism. They're not the same, but they do share certain common significant features, such as the "enlightenement" story, the contempt for the world and flesh as a realm of maya or "illusions" in the first case, and as a prison of the soul in the second. But neither has anything to do with Christianity. They also share the idea that a class of imaginary elites, called something like "the compassionate ones" or maybe "the illuminati" puts one set of people ahead of others in "enlightenment," and makes them into special "priests" of truth to whom all others have to apply in order to escape material reality.

The Christian story does not share these features at all. And the dynamic of salvation in Christianity is the person and work of Christ, not esoteric knowledge or some "illuminated class" of better folks. And whereas Christianity celebrates the Incarnation, and regards the body as an instrument of relationship to God, Gnosticism utterly deplores such ideas. The antipathy between those worldviews is actually deep and not hard to detect, if one knows how to look to find it.

But most outsiders to the controverys between them simply don't.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:18 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:37 pmRight now, I'm reading Dr. Joost Meerlo's treatise The Rape of the Mind: The Psychology of Thought Control, Menticide and Brainwashing. It was written almost half a century ago, and yet the dangers of which it warns could easily have been culled from the internet this morning. The techniques of mass manipulation do not themselves change, though the tools that are being used to achieve them are more sophisticated today. One comes away from his book with the overwhelming recognition that we are "being had," and "had" in the worst way, by our elites.

Next to me, on my desk, is a copy of The WEF's "Covid 19: The Great Reset." If it were not enough that guys like Ellul (who had his own study on propaganda, which I also have) and Meerlo were warning us, the imperious fools at Davos are coming right out and publishing their totalitarian intentions -- a grimy Socialism for the masses, privilege and elitism for them, is the sum of it. It's almost hard to believe that such rogues still crawl between heaven and earth...and these, today are our leaders and heads of technology...
Coincidentally I had ordered and just yesterday received the title Battle for the Mind (William Sargent, 1957). An idea I had been working with to put labels on the very strange goings-on in America over the last 8+ years has to do with 'hysteria'. I used the term loosely, depreciatively, yet now I begin to think that what is going on today, deliberately or inadvertently, brings out conditions of genuine social hysteria. I am interested in the first major instance of fracture: the events of 9/11. It seems fair and accurate to say that here a huge *crack* appeared. It has not gotten better and is widening.

I am especially interested in the reaction that has been cultivated and inculcated and directed against one notable orangish political character. It seems to me fair and reasonable to say that the sort of cultivated fear & anger that became so prevalent, and then exacerbated by a pandemic and all the associated stresses (similar to war-conditions) have primed the population, but especially the susceptible in the population, to real manifestations of social hysteria.

In those conditions people are said to become 'highly suggestible' and in that sensitive, weakened state, become susceptible to fanaticism, credulity, and paranoia. So on one hand during times of extreme stresses during war and crisis, they become hyper-sensitive to suggestion, but another reaction is sometimes completely the opposite: incapacity to hear and consider reasoned arguments. So someone in the grip of extreme stress and hysteria (after a bombing for example), instead of being capable of reacting normally will react very abnormally and cannot be reasoned with even to preserve themselves.

There were of course those videos that circulated, and still circulate, by Yuri Bezmenov about how social structures are broken down for purposes of political destabilization. Reaction against even that idea (Marxist take-over, CRT, etc.) have been also similarly hysterical though what is going on seems to fit into the picture Bezmenov describes.

In short this is where I think we must have, we must come up with, a sane, rational and accurate hermeneutics. To be able, even while in the midst of high-stress events and social manipulation, to see what is going on.

Sargent's examination is based on Pavlov's models. Protective inhibition is some form of shut-down, some type of abnormal reaction against the stress. One can apply the picture offered in this following paragraph to events we have all witnessed, though I would gather we all interpret them differently:
Once a state of hysteria has been induced in men or dogs
by mounting stresses which the brain can no longer toler-
ate,“protective inhibition” is likely to supervene. This will
disturb the individual's ordinary conditioned behaviour
patterns. In human beings, states of greatly increased sug-
gestibility are also found; and so are their opposite, namely,
states in which the patient is deaf to all suggestions, how-
ever sensible. Hysteria has produced sudden and unex-
plained panics in most wars; often among troops famous
for their battle-record.Among the finest fighters of the
ancient world were: Caesar's veteran legionaries, and from
the bravest of these he chose his Eagle-bearers.Yet after ten
to thirteen years of continuous campaigning in Gaul they
also could break down suddenly. Suetonius26 records two
cases of hysterical Eagle-bearers running away on differ-
ent occasions. When Caesar tried to stop them, the first
attempted to strike him with the sharp butt of the Eagle,
the second left the Eagle in his hand and rushed on. But
these are extreme cases; hysteria was also evidenced in the
susceptibility to rumours of Londoners during the Blitz.
Brain exhaustion led them to believe stories about “Lord
Haw-Haw's” broadcasts from Germany which they would
have at once rejected as untrue when in a more relaxed and
less exhausted state. The anxiety engendered by the Fall of
France,the Battle of Britain, and the Blitz created a state in
which large groups of persons were temporarily able to ac-
cept new and sometimes strange beliefs without criticism.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:52 pm
by Lacewing
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:57 am THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM!

This obligates me to respond to every one who pipes in?
Of course not. I was pointing out that you felt it necessary to be an asshole... and then come 'round soon after to shoot a question at me.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:57 am For a year and a half I offered links, articles, citations, all ignored or dismissed or roundly rejected (without any of the info being assessed on its merits).
Do you seriously think you're the only one on this forum who considers sources and is thoughtful about the issues at hand? Not everyone has to agree with you, Henry. You've repeated and circulated too much crap information on this forum -- and you ignore or dismiss people's challenges and questions back to you. So, how in the world would you be considered a reputable resource for truthful information? You continually have opportunities to further demonstrate your claims, but you just get childish and nasty about any challenges.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:57 amYou, yourself, dismissed a literal warehouse of info, accessible thru one friggin' link, becuz some sketchy fact checker told you to, not becuz you assessed the info yourself. And you'd have me do it again....for you?
No, please don't. My current question to you was: 'Which reputable sources do you use most often?' That takes, like, 10-15 seconds to type in. That's all. And you can't do it... because you want to throw heaps of trash at people and tell them to find the truthful bits in it that you see. That way (perhaps), you cannot be held responsible for any specific bit of misinformation, and you can accuse the requestor of not being thorough enough.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:14 pm
by Immanuel Can
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:18 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:37 pmRight now, I'm reading Dr. Joost Meerlo's treatise The Rape of the Mind: The Psychology of Thought Control, Menticide and Brainwashing. It was written almost half a century ago, and yet the dangers of which it warns could easily have been culled from the internet this morning. The techniques of mass manipulation do not themselves change, though the tools that are being used to achieve them are more sophisticated today. One comes away from his book with the overwhelming recognition that we are "being had," and "had" in the worst way, by our elites.

Next to me, on my desk, is a copy of The WEF's "Covid 19: The Great Reset." If it were not enough that guys like Ellul (who had his own study on propaganda, which I also have) and Meerlo were warning us, the imperious fools at Davos are coming right out and publishing their totalitarian intentions -- a grimy Socialism for the masses, privilege and elitism for them, is the sum of it. It's almost hard to believe that such rogues still crawl between heaven and earth...and these, today are our leaders and heads of technology...
Coincidentally I had ordered and just yesterday received the title Battle for the Mind (William Sargent, 1957). An idea I had been working with to put labels on the very strange goings-on in America over the last 8+ years has to do with 'hysteria'. I used the term loosely, depreciatively, yet now I begin to think that what is going on today, deliberately or inadvertently, brings out conditions of genuine social hysteria. I am interested in the first major instance of fracture: the events of 9/11. It seems fair and accurate to say that here a huge *crack* appeared. It has not gotten better and is widening.
One of the tricks of totalitarians is to convince the public that a controversy that is actually secondary or even trivial is the central controversy. In that way, the autocrats can trick the public into expending all its oppositional energy on battles that, even if they win them, will actually not change anything important at all.

Let me illustrate, if I may. Consider the Coke-Pepsi "wars." These wars are actually a fake controversy. They are a cooperative project by both companies to make people think that deciding which carmel-flavoured sugar beverage to choose is very important. But the truth is (and the thing neither side ever wants you to realize is the issue), nobody needs a caramel-flavoured sugar beverage. Nobody. It's junk.

So long as people focus on allegiance to one company or the other, they will continue to invest belief in caramel-flavouored sugar beverages, and maybe even come to see them as a focus of loyalty, of character, or of group belonging, a signal of the good life. And consumption will continue apace, no matter who seems to be "winning" the Coke-Pepsi war.

In the same way, the Democrats and the old Republicans have been directing public attention to the question of who wins the next election. And it's not an unimportant question -- unless both candidates are essentially committed to the same kinds of policies and objectives...and the chief objective of increasing government power and influence, and thereby bolstering their own money and status. Then, like the caramel-flavoured sugar beverages, it no longer matters who's in: the puppet on the right and the puppet on the left are essentially working on the same project anyway. But the public is distracted from the main issue, which is that no actual choice of a different candidate, policy, trajectory and outcome is being offered them. They will keep thinking they have won, when all that's really happened is they've found a different way to loose.

Does it matter who's on the Left and who's on the Right in America? Maybe sometimes it does. Maybe the new governor in Virginia, for example, is a different fish from the regular politician; in which case, great. But too many times, we think that because one side won or lost that the public also won or lost. And I think that the truth is that the public has been losing to a generaly corrupt political system for some time now, no matter who ended up on whatever side.

The authoritarians have been winning by distracting the public from the real issues with side-squabbles.
I am especially interested in the reaction that has been cultivated and inculcated and directed against one notable orangish political character. It seems to me fair and reasonable to say that the sort of cultivated fear & anger that became so prevalent, and then exacerbated by a pandemic and all the associated stresses (similar to war-conditions) have primed the population, but especially the susceptible in the population, to real manifestations of social hysteria.

In those conditions people are said to become 'highly suggestible' and in that sensitive, weakened state, become susceptible to fanaticism, credulity, and paranoia. So on one hand during times of extreme stresses during war and crisis, they become hyper-sensitive to suggestion, but another reaction is sometimes completely the opposite: incapacity to hear and consider reasoned arguments. So someone in the grip of extreme stress and hysteria (after a bombing for example), instead of being capable of reacting normally will react very abnormally and cannot be reasoned with even to preserve themselves.
Yes, yes. Absolutely.

Every autocrat knows that if you cause the people fear they will surrender their freedoms to the next guy who promises some stability. So the panic and craziness, the info overload and the babble of conflicting opinions, the COVID fears and the collapse of the supply chain, the price of gas and the empty store shelves, the wars in education and in academia...all of these are tools (or perhaps just opportunties) of the same goal: make the public nervous, then tell them you'll fix it if they surrender more authority to you.
In short this is where I think we must have, we must come up with, a sane, rational and accurate hermeneutics. To be able, even while in the midst of high-stress events and social manipulation, to see what is going on.
You're using "hermeneutics" in a very general way there, are you not? I think you're using it to refer to how anybody interprets anything, such as news events, perhaps. I don't think you're using it in a way limited to actual text, are you?

I'm not objecting: I'm just asking, so I'm clear on what you mean.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:18 pm
Once a state of hysteria...a state in which large groups of persons were temporarily able to accept new and sometimes strange beliefs without criticism.
That's a great quotation. And very true, I think.

It squares with something David Shenk wrote years ago, in his book Data Smog. He talks about how Spinoza and Descartes had a controversy over the question, are people basically critical thinkers or are they basically credulous?

Spinoza thought people tended to believe what they heard first, and afterward to examine, criticize and accept or reject it on more intellectual grounds. Descartes, on the other hand, believed that people were sort of instintive cynics, who would first disbelieve in new information, and then afterward, perhaps accept it and believe it if there was subsequent evidence or proof.

As modern psychology has shown, one of them was right. And it wasn't Descartes. People immediately believe information they hear for the first time -- perhaps only for as long as a second or so -- and then afterward, to become more critical and thoughtful about it. And this fact is easy to test: just t tell somebody an outrageous untruth, like, "Did I tell you that it turns out I'm Madonna's cousin?" and see how frequently people's first response is "Really?" Then you'll see them think about it, and say, "Yeah, right...nice one." But it's too late. They already believed you for a second, and they realize they've been had.

So people believe lies instinctively, then quickly figure out they've been had. But, asks Shenk, what happens when people are denied the time to think? What happens when the lies come in so thick and fast that no sooner have they heard one lie then they are hit with a new one, or even with the same lie repeated?

The answer turns out to be that people slip into a kind of mental "surfing" mode, where, instead of trying to slow and process the amount of information, they start to sort of "go with the flow" of the lies. They don't have time to do more. So they go into "believer" mode, and only if they have time afterward, get around to putting the lies to the test in "critical" mode. With no time, because the information flows so fast, people spend less and less time being thoughtful, reflective, critical and careful, and devote more energy to just keeping their heads above the flow of information.

That's where the "without criticism" part of your quotation comes in. With no time to think, people cannot be critical. They can only believe. Hysteria sucks up their psychological energies, and the pace of propaganda overwhelms them. They start to "surf," and just accept stuff as it comes. And that's when the totalitarian leader has them in exactly the state he needs them to be in, in order to enact any bizarre or morally reprehensible plan he may have. There won't be sufficient public critical awareness available anymore to call his projects to account. He has won.

I do think we're approaching that critical point of public confusion very quickly. And in some countries, I think we're already there.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:28 pm
by Lacewing
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:28 am Man is free (self-directing, self-responsible, self-reliant). This is a truth about him. It is a principle (a fundamental law or truth or fact from which others are derived). This freedom is natural to him. It's part of his substance. It can't be separated out from him. It isn't granted to him by other men. We can codify it, but never create it. We can violate it, but never destroy it.

Man is his own. This is a truth about him. It is a principle. This self-possession, this ownness, is natural to him. It's part of his substance. It can't be separated out from him. It isn't granted to him by other men. We can codify it, but never create it. We can violate it, but never destroy it.
Notice how you have no trouble repeating this (above) for the 5,000th time.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:28 amWould you fight to defend these principles? If the choice was, as the expression goes, dying on your feet or living on your knees, which would you choose?
I choose my battles -- and how to survive them -- based on the circumstances. Not everything is known. Sometimes there are trade-offs, and they're worth it.

For example, when I was raped at knifepoint, I could have fought to the death -- and sure, I screamed like crazy at first until he jammed his fingers down my throat -- but ultimately, I had to choose (or not) to keep it in perspective of the bigger picture of life. Have you ever been raped, Henry? There have been people who were imprisoned and treated horribly for years of their lives -- and some learned to keep it in perspective -- and/or they had no choice. Life is usually worth surviving for. Things can shift.

The truth often is that you can't actually know if you're going to die from something. You might live, if you play your cards right... and if the right cards have been dealt to you. All of your pride and bluster, Henry, seems more about justifying and excusing yourself to act like an uncompromising asshole. It's clearly fun for you. You're not doing anything truly revolutionary, though... you're just mouthing off in your one-sided way at your computer. It appears that you have too much time on your hands, which is why you CAN bury yourself in mountains of nonsense that appeals to you, and insist that everyone else have the time and interest in doing that too.

And here you are asking me about my principles. :lol:
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:28 am We have to define the world. And our definition of the world (existence, our being here, life, awareness) will then inevitably bring forth a response, or an answer, in what is necessary to do, in how it is necessary to live.
Like we've done and always do? What's DIFFERENT?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:28 am Seen thru this lens: all things are not equal, there is no gray to hunker down in. A person can't evade committing (so he best make sure what he commits to is real).
And how do you do that, Henry?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:28 am
Lacewing wrote:I think clarity is more important than principles.
By definition: a principle is unambiguous, is intrinsically clear. There's no reason to choose one over the other.
So, are you claiming that all of man's principles are based on clarity? Then what is it that you're fighting against?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:17 pm
by henry quirk
So, how in the world would you be considered a reputable resource for truthful information?

I shouldn't be. As I say (over and over): go see for yourself. If you (and others) have, and have different conclusions, then that's that.

-----

Notice how you have no trouble repeating this (above) for the 5,000th time.

Yep. I imagine I'll stop beatin' on that drum, in-forum, too.

Anyway, you answered my question: thanks.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:35 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:14 pm You're using "hermeneutics" in a very general way there, are you not? I think you're using it to refer to how anybody interprets anything, such as news events, perhaps. I don't think you're using it in a way limited to actual text, are you?

I'm not objecting: I'm just asking, so I'm clear on what you mean.
Yes, I could have used simply 'interpretation' (exegesis) but I mean all of it. My view is that the text of the present is a sort of living creature, a shape-shifter, insofar as it is an array sent up for us -- a spectacle -- and in its way, both literally and figuratively, demoniac. By its very nature it can't do much but distort.

So, by use of the term hermeneutics, which in its original sense implied a divine aid or intervention in understanding, I am proposing that a prophylactic is required, but also interpretive aid. Spiritual help from above.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:37 pm
by Lacewing
Age wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:25 am Talk about one thinking 'they know'.
Hi Age. I thought I would just check-in to see if you've expanded your perspective beyond claiming to know what other people think... and nope, it's still your same old projections.

Everything I say is a possibility for consideration... that is all.

You have shown repeatedly that you don't understand this. Your interpretations/conclusions of what you think you know about me are consistently wrong. Yet, you appear to have such familiarity and sureness of your projections -- and since they clearly don't apply to me or what I'm thinking -- they must be about you somehow! Your misunderstandings and projections are tiresome to deal with, and that's why I stopped talking with you.

So, at this point in time, I can see that I've still got no interest in reading your nonsense claims. Maybe I'll check back in another month or so to see if you've discovered how to interact without blasting all of your inaccuracies onto other people for them to deal with.