For the discussion of all things philosophical.
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It needs a thread of its own. The ability to look up without being trapped in the weeds of dualism in no way opposes Deismhenry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:10 pmNick, I thought you were gonna start that one up here.Is World Peace Possible(?)
*Yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about. Unless I'm mis-recollectin', up-thread you said you'd start a new thread, Is World Peace Possible(?).Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:28 pm*It needs a thread of its own. **The ability to look up without being trapped in the weeds of dualism in no way opposes Deismhenry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:10 pmNick, I thought you were gonna start that one up here.Is World Peace Possible(?)
I don't know. Epistemic confusion seems to be part of the human condition - or at least of my condition. My hope lies in revelation: a revelation that contains within it the means of verifying its authenticity. I have no idea what that would be though, although some near-death experiencers report that during the experience they "knew everything". That knowledge seems to be lost to them when they return, and I have not yet encountered an NDE report where the experiencer explains *how* they knew that they knew, so to speak.
G'day there AJ. Thanks for your response.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:43 pm Hello there Harry hope all is well. It is indeed impressive that you read the entire thread. However, and based on what you have said so far, and the dialog you submitted, I do not get the impression that you have grasped the nature of the problem.
The place to start, and here I mean the place for all of us to start, the only possible beginning point, is with the solid and undeniable truth that it has come about (and this is true in your own case) that we can no longer 'believe'. And when we try, say, to 'believe' we do so through imposing simulacra of belief. If you examine and think-through what I suggest here I believe you will recognize that it is true.
The prime example of 'simulacra of belief' is, for our purposes, Immanuel Can. In him the 'edifice' of belief is a forced contraption of what it originally was. It is even quite possible that he does not, really, 'believe' but contrives a whole internet personality as an 'enactment'. His 'belief' is expressed through a contrived certainty and, in the end, reduces to "you will soon be in Hell'. That's it! It has no other moving part. Immanuel Can is just as much a postmodern creature as we are such creatures: we who exist in a state where we cannot believe (in the former structure, the former story).
This is not a minor problem, it is a vast problem. And my assertion is that *we* have not fully seen the dimension of this problem. What it means, what it has meant, what very strange effects it has on our culture and as well on our personalities and how we act.
The only way (that I can tell) to have meaningful interchange is to identify the real problem. Then to talk about it honestly.
Go ahead Harry -- start with yourself!
I would make one suggestion, direct but as always friendly: identify the problem. I do not believe that you have in any subtantial sense got to the essence of what differences pertain between my perspective (which has evolved but more properly been solidified through involvement in this thread and principally through interaction with Immanuel) and that of Lacewing. I hope that you recognize that Lacewing did not and does not have a *position* per se but rather a reactive stance -- and this is a significant difference.
I will further say that if you were able to see more clearly the dramatic problem that we all face (a social, ideological and cultural we) your dialogue might have had some interesting force in it. As it is it is merely 'cute' and substantially vacuous.
Why should anyone, who isn't you, accept what you have verified and realised the value of as the product "of sustained impartial attention?"
Well yes, I imagine you are short of time having read all 339 pages of this thread.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:39 pmPlease bear in mind that I'm working on a coding project at the moment and am loath to spare the time to get involved in an extensive conversation in this thread.
Ha. Fair call. I was hoping it would be something of an end rather than a continuation. The reading had become something of a diversion for procrastination.uwot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:07 pmWell yes, I imagine you are short of time having read all 339 pages of this thread.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:39 pmPlease bear in mind that I'm working on a coding project at the moment and am loath to spare the time to get involved in an extensive conversation in this thread.
There is no reason to. There is only one reason for seeking to escape from Plato's Cave. If a person is satisfied with living in an absurd world lacking meaning, why look for escape? If a person wants to escape, it requires first the need to escape, the will to escape, and the courage to buck the tide to sustain conscious attention. Without it conscious impartial attention is impossible. How many have this? Christianity for me offers the help of grace to make escape possible
The answer is REALLY VERY, VERY SIMPLE. If ANY one is interested.
This is IN the 'process' of being SHOWN, or REVEALED.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:37 pm Epistemic confusion seems to be part of the human condition - or at least of my condition. My hope lies in revelation: a revelation that contains within it the means of verifying its authenticity.
The WAY to KNOW 'things', is SHOWN, to those who Truly WANT to KNOW.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:37 pm I have no idea what that would be though, although some near-death experiencers report that during the experience they "knew everything".
Okay.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:37 pm That knowledge seems to be lost to them when they return, and I have not yet encountered an NDE report where the experiencer explains *how* they knew that they knew, so to speak.
There is no need to escape from Plato's Cave if you don't chain yourself to it in the first place. Anyone who has read philosophy will know all about the veil of appearance - no competent philosopher is a naïve realist.
If your world is absurd and lacks meaning, I really don't think the best way to cure that is to latch onto ancient mythology.
You may be better served by directing your conscious attention at something that will make a material difference, rather than moping about how awful everything is.
Almost everyone. The trick is to use it to cheer yourself up.
See above; there is little evidence that your christianity makes you happy.
Is the purpose of Christianity to make you happy or to experience meaning from a higher perspective. Do you find happiness from the eternal dualistic battle between and no? From the world pace thread:uwot wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:26 amThere is no need to escape from Plato's Cave if you don't chain yourself to it in the first place. Anyone who has read philosophy will know all about the veil of appearance - no competent philosopher is a naïve realist.If your world is absurd and lacks meaning, I really don't think the best way to cure that is to latch onto ancient mythology.You may be better served by directing your conscious attention at something that will make a material difference, rather than moping about how awful everything is.Almost everyone. The trick is to use it to cheer yourself up.See above; there is little evidence that your christianity makes you happy.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:29 pmIs the purpose of Christianity to make you happy or to experience meaning from a higher perspective. Do you find happiness from the eternal dualistic battle between and no? From the world pace thread:uwot wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:26 amThere is no need to escape from Plato's Cave if you don't chain yourself to it in the first place. Anyone who has read philosophy will know all about the veil of appearance - no competent philosopher is a naïve realist.If your world is absurd and lacks meaning, I really don't think the best way to cure that is to latch onto ancient mythology.You may be better served by directing your conscious attention at something that will make a material difference, rather than moping about how awful everything is.Almost everyone. The trick is to use it to cheer yourself up.See above; there is little evidence that your christianity makes you happy.
But peace for you is a theoretical impossibility. I am suggesting that without the experience of meaning as explained in the OP by Simone, it remains an impossibility. Why must humanity be fixated on the duality created by shadows oblivious of a higher perspective in which they are experienced as one.
The reason is that Man is not a unified whole but rather a tripartite soul of three parts held together by imagination to make our hypocrisy tolerable for ourselves. For those aware that peace is impossible for the human condition, the question becomes if our species can open to meaning from a higher perspective putting the tripartite soul in balance? Unfortunately it requires impartial conscious attention which only now exists in our being as a potential.
So for the great beast, world peace is an impossibility. Like all other beasts, it follows natural and cosmic cycles. All potentials remain for individuals with the need to be human rather then for justified unbalanced tripartite souls.
The human condition is consciousness, to be conscious of the horror that is this meatgrinder called nature.Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:29 pm For those aware that peace is impossible for the human condition, the question becomes if our species can open to meaning from a higher perspective putting the tripartite soul in balance? Unfortunately it requires impartial conscious attention which only now exists in our being as a potential.
Where there is consciousness there is no peace. Peace is a place called Mars, or the Moon.
There are moments -- here in this present conversation -- where I notice things and desire to make some comment but then find that organizing what I am perceiving seems quite difficult. It is really my own problem to solve of course. But I will try to address 'the surface' first and then move to 'the depth'.uwot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:04 pmIt is an interesting page and it would have been a splendid exhibition to go to 16 years ago had I been in LA at the time. Yeah, Christian iconography is beautiful and fascinating. I have a Madonna and child triptych above my telly as I watch the Wimbledon final and respond to you.
I realize that it appears that I have been edging toward a position that denies the essence of Christian revelation, and therefore appear to have been mocking my own former *commitments*, and this is true in one sense and untrue in another. My position is that 'the picture' (that is the structural edifice of Christianity) is the vehicle through which invisible and even ineffable truths enter man's world of perception. As the Stories are undermined by variegated processes -- those that have produced modernity -- the first order of effect is that intellectuals and those leaders of culture lose the capability of receiving and grasping those *truths* to which I refer.When The Eternal Woman was first published in Germany, Europe was a battlefield of modern ideologies that would sweep away millions of lives in war and genocide. Denying the Creator, who made male and female, Nazism and Communism could only fail to appreciate the true meaning of the feminine and reduce woman to a mere instrument of the state. In the name of liberating her from the so-called tyranny of Christianity, atheism, in any form, leads to woman's enslavement.
With penetrating insight, Gertrud von le Fort understood that the war on womanhood, and consequently on motherhood, always coincides with an attack on the faith of the Catholic Church, which she embraced at the age of 50 in 1926. In The Eternal Woman, she counters the modern assault on the feminine not with polemical argument but with perhaps the most beautiful meditation on womanhood ever written.
Taking Mary, Virgin and Mother, as her model, von le Fort reflects on the significance of woman's spiritual and physical receptivity that constitutes her very essence, as well as her role in both the creation and redemption of human beings. Mary's fiat to God is the pathway to our salvation, as it is inextricably linked with the obedience unto death of Jesus her Son. Like the Son's acceptance of the Cross, Mary's acceptance of her maternity symbolizes for all mankind the self-surrender to the Creator required of every human soul. Since any woman's acceptance of motherhood is likewise a yes to God, when womanhood and motherhood are properly understood and appreciated, the nature of the soul's relationship to God is revealed.