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What happens if all people are wrong about it?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:05 pm morality is objective, but many people are wrong about what it is.
How? How does something that's merely a "biological" phenomenon suddenly convert to a "moral" one? Eating, sleeping, reproducing...these are things that all animals do, from dogs to fish to paramecia; on what basis would you be willing to argue that, in man alone, any of it becomes "moral"?
But the German's collective sense of morality didn't. The Italians' didn't. The Japaneses' didn't. And then the Russians, sense of morality told them to impose and even worse dictatorship, as did the sense of morality of the Chinese, the North Koreans, North Vietnamese, Cambodians, Zimbabweans, The Romanians, Albanians, Yugoslavians, Cubans, Venezuelans...Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:17 pmIf our collective sense of morality tells us we should oppose him, then that is probably what we should do, and is what we in fact did.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:02 pmIf that's right, then we'd still not know whether we ought to oppose Hitler or not. If we feel like it, maybe; but if we don't...
That's why it's very important to drill down into the question beyond the mere level of broad Theism, and get to what kind of Theism, and what particular beliefs, each group had.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:36 pmThat's certainly true, but belief in God doesn't eliminate that problem. Theists have felt things and found justification for the position they want in their scriptures. Theists have justified killing other theists or calling them evil based on their beliefs.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:02 pmIf that's right, then we'd still not know whether we ought to oppose Hitler or not. If we feel like it, maybe; but if we don't...
That's factually false, actually. The majority of Christians were in various other nations. Germany was Lutheran-Catholic in their theology. I'm not going to defend either.Talking about Hitler. Antisemitism was rampant in the Germany at that time. The vast majority of Christians were German.
You don't know your history.The people who first really opposed Hitler in Germany...commies.
No, that's not correct. There have been many cases throughout human history when the consensus -- even of all the people on earth -- was plain wrong. At one time, everybody believed the earth was flat, and that diseases were caused by curses. It didn't make them right.LuckyR wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:42 pmIf your supposedly "more plausible" alternative option was correct, there would be consensus with a few outliers,Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:05 pmWell, there, you've just assumed the conclusion you were intending to defend...you haven't provided any defense for it.
The alternate interpretation is at least just a plausible, and perhaps more plausible: that morality is objective, but many people are wrong about what it is.
Are you suggesting that human beings are no different to any other animal?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 pmHow? How does something that's merely a "biological" phenomenon suddenly convert to a "moral" one? Eating, sleeping, reproducing...these are things that all animals do, from dogs to fish to paramecia; on what basis would you be willing to argue that, in man alone, any of it becomes "moral"?
Once, all people were wrong about the earth being flat. What happened then?Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:23 pmWhat happens if all people are wrong about it?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:05 pm morality is objective, but many people are wrong about what it is.
Is that not exactly what you assume? For do you not believe that humans are just a kind of animal that has evolved from the muck by time and chance? On what basis, then, would we regard his "biological" processes to be "moral," and others not?Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:03 pmAre you suggesting that human beings are no different to any other animal?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 pmHow? How does something that's merely a "biological" phenomenon suddenly convert to a "moral" one? Eating, sleeping, reproducing...these are things that all animals do, from dogs to fish to paramecia; on what basis would you be willing to argue that, in man alone, any of it becomes "moral"?
I could only try to tell you why I, personally, think they were morally wrong, in relation to my sense of morality.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:50 pmBut the German's collective sense of morality didn't. The Italians' didn't. The Japaneses' didn't. And then the Russians, sense of morality told them to impose and even worse dictatorship, as did the sense of morality of the Chinese, the North Koreans, North Vietnamese, Cambodians, Zimbabweans, The Romanians, Albanians, Yugoslavians, Cubans, Venezuelans...Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:17 pmIf our collective sense of morality tells us we should oppose him, then that is probably what we should do, and is what we in fact did.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:02 pm
If that's right, then we'd still not know whether we ought to oppose Hitler or not. If we feel like it, maybe; but if we don't...
The upshot is that most of the world didn't share our "sense of morality" at all. They all opted for regimes more like Hitler's than anything like ours.
What makes them defective, and us right?
Then "morality" for you means only "Harbal doesn't like..."
They observed that Earth isn't flat and self-corrected.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:04 pmOnce, all people were wrong about the earth being flat. What happened then?Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:23 pmWhat happens if all people are wrong about it?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:05 pm morality is objective, but many people are wrong about what it is.
Perhaps some other animals do have a sense of morality of some sort, who knows? I don't find it incredible that we have developed the faculty of morality along our evolutionary journey. We developed a level of intelligence far exceeding that of any other earthly creature, so it does not seem strange that we also developed behavioural modifiers that are more sophisticated.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:07 pmIs that not exactly what you assume? For do you not believe that humans are just a kind of animal that has evolved from the muck by time and chance? On what basis, then, would we regard his "biological" processes to be "moral," and others not?Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:03 pmAre you suggesting that human beings are no different to any other animal?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 pm
How? How does something that's merely a "biological" phenomenon suddenly convert to a "moral" one? Eating, sleeping, reproducing...these are things that all animals do, from dogs to fish to paramecia; on what basis would you be willing to argue that, in man alone, any of it becomes "moral"?
There's quite a chasm between us, isn't there? and I know that nothing I could say to you would go any way towards bridging it, so why should I bother trying?Of course, I don't agree: I don't think the universe is indifferent, or that man is just an animal. But I'm asking about what you said, not about something I said. You said that morality was a "biological phenomenon." I just want to see how that argument plays out, and whether or not it can be believed.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:10 pmThen "morality" for you means only "Harbal doesn't like..."
Well, at least you consistently come back to the same thing...even if it means morality is essentially nothing to anybody.
Then it's very important to drill down beyond the mere level of broad Atheism.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:59 pm That's why it's very important to drill down into the question beyond the mere level of broad Theism, and get to what kind of Theism, and what particular beliefs, each group had.
Talking about Hitler. Antisemitism was rampant in the Germany at that time. The vast majority of Christians were German.
If one gets to cherry pick the theists, the atheists and agnostics should be able to also. So you pick people who are generally always moral from the theists and the atheists pick people who are always moral on their team and you'll both confirm...well nothing at all.That's factually false, actually. The majority of Christians were in various other nations. Germany was Lutheran-Catholic in their theology. I'm not going to defend either.
You don't know your history.The people who first really opposed Hitler in Germany...commies.
One can disagree without making blanket statements about the other person.You don't know your history.
Yeah... the evolutionary advantage argument.Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:23 pm Perhaps some other animals do have a sense of morality of some sort, who knows? I don't find it incredible that we have developed the faculty of morality along our evolutionary journey. We developed a level of intelligence far exceeding that of any other earthly creature, so it does not seem strange that we also developed behavioural modifiers that are more sophisticated.