God and morality

[Immanuel Can]

I cannot make my life any better.

If what you say is true, then Phyllo wins, and you lose...and there really isn't anything any of us can do about it. What do you want from us? Pity? What use is that to you?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Right, but they didn't throw the baby out with the bath water. They got rid of the priests of death but kept the jesus fellow.

Well, to have done that, at that time, was impossible. It would have been inconceivable. They did not have a Marxian cutting tool of the developed type that you have. So in effect what you are up to is a strange projection of a revisionist spirit back in time.

Given your nihilistic propensities, guided and determined by a will and intentionality that is itself (to appearances) quite profoundly psychological, it is impossible to even entertain a world constructed on the basis of or one resulting from an application of your oddly-formed ideology.

[Gary Childress]

I cannot make my life any better.

If what you say is true, then Phyllo wins, and you lose...and there really isn't anything any of us can do about it. What do you want from us? Pity? What use is that to you?

There's no "winning" or "losing" for the two of you. It is my loss, and it is a real loss. I think you need to start seeing things for what they are and not how you think they are in your imaginary world.

[Immanuel Can]

You might not know very many Protestants, I'm guessing.

Frankly I am a consequence of Protestant mentality even to a rather extreme degree insofar as I am American and a product of radical Americanism.

Well, Protestantism has had a significant effect on what it means to be an American, it's true. But it's far from the only thing that has contributed to that complex phenomenon, as any historian will tell you. And what makes it "radical" to be American, well, that might well be sourced in many things...the psychological effect of migration, the frontier, isolationism, militarism, dissenter culture and the war of independence, rugged individualism, free enterprise, expansionism, secularization, industrialization, exceptionalism...

So no, you're not really a product of Protestantism...certainly not to the degree you're a product of other things. But I do agree that among the things that constitute Americanism, you're going to find some Protestant-based elements, even among those who eschew Protestantism entirely. Whether those are the good or bad elements will need careful parsing before we draw any conclusions from that.

I mean in the larger Occidental world, in our hemisphere and also in Europe.

In Europe, the traditions you're looking for would be RCism in the south, and perhaps Lutheranism and Calvinism in the north. You'd be looking at Eastern Orthodoxy in the east, of course. And we can't forget the effects of Islamic crusades, particularly in places like Spain. But all of these would only list the religious elements...and as we can see from the American case, there are powerful influences on the shape of any civilization that are not religious in any sense.

What the ideological elements, the metaphysical beliefs (whether religious or secular) influence is not so much the forces at work themselves as their range of possible interpretation. And it is this subsequent interpretation that rationalizes to the participants the next step that seems plausible to them following each event. That's powerful, to be sure; but it's not the exclusive source of outcomes.

The thing is to get the interpretation right. And for that, one has to have the truthful metaphysic.

[Immanuel Can]

I cannot make my life any better.

If what you say is true, then Phyllo wins, and you lose...and there really isn't anything any of us can do about it. What do you want from us? Pity? What use is that to you?

There's no "winning" or "losing" for the two of you. It is my loss, and it is a real loss.

Right. So what good can we do to you? I can encourage you to take charge of your direction, and Phyllo can tell you you cannot. But it will be 100% up to you what happens.

So what do you want from me and Phyllo?

[Gary Childress]

If what you say is true, then Phyllo wins, and you lose...and there really isn't anything any of us can do about it. What do you want from us? Pity? What use is that to you?

There's no "winning" or "losing" for the two of you. It is my loss, and it is a real loss.

Right. So what good can we do to you? I can encourage you to take charge of your direction, and Phyllo can tell you you cannot. But it will be 100% up to you what happens.

So what do you want from me and Phyllo?

I don't want anything from you or Phyllo, other than compassion and validation of my feelings. Do you want something of me? And if so, then what is it?

[Immanuel Can]

There's no "winning" or "losing" for the two of you. It is my loss, and it is a real loss.

Right. So what good can we do to you? I can encourage you to take charge of your direction, and Phyllo can tell you you cannot. But it will be 100% up to you what happens.

So what do you want from me and Phyllo?

I don't want anything from you or Phyllo, other than compassion and validation of my feelings.

Oh. Sorry...I'm not offering that. I can only offer you good advice. Reinforcement of self-defeating feelings doesn't seem to me to be in your interests.

[Alexis Jacobi]

So no, you're not really a product of Protestantism...certainly not to the degree you're a product of other things. But I do agree that among the things that constitute Americanism, you're going to find some Protestant-based elements, even among those who eschew Protestantism entirely. Whether those are the good or bad elements will need careful parsing before we draw any conclusions from that.

Note that some posts back you presented Protestantism in a heroic and glorious light as the spirit of critical inquiry and thought, a liberation resulting in the scientific revolution, the overthrow of determined, controlled thought, and presented it as the Bringer of a brave new world…

And similarly I would respond to the quoted portion above and point out that all if this, all results, and everything that has cone about as a consequence, is as absolutely mixed as everything I have described as Americanism.

Binary divisions in these conversations do not get us anywhere substantial enough to be important.

Your Christianity, the actions and outlooks that you propose on, largely render it impossible for you to actually engage in the world, with the world.

[Gary Childress]

Right. So what good can we do to you? I can encourage you to take charge of your direction, and Phyllo can tell you you cannot. But it will be 100% up to you what happens.

So what do you want from me and Phyllo?

I don't want anything from you or Phyllo, other than compassion and validation of my feelings.

Oh. Sorry...I'm not offering that. I can only offer you good advice. Reinforcement of self-defeating feelings doesn't seem to me to be in your interests.

So you refuse to validate my feelings. Instead, you want me to do something. What do you want me to do?

[Alexis Jacobi]

I don't want anything from you or Phyllo, other than compassion and validation of my feelings. Do you want something of me? And if so, then what is it?

Do you grant to anyone a right to want something from you?

What do you want me to do?

I will give you a specific outline— that is if you really want it.

[Immanuel Can]

So no, you're not really a product of Protestantism...certainly not to the degree you're a product of other things. But I do agree that among the things that constitute Americanism, you're going to find some Protestant-based elements, even among those who eschew Protestantism entirely. Whether those are the good or bad elements will need careful parsing before we draw any conclusions from that.

Note that some posts back you presented Protestantism in a heroic and glorious light as the spirit of critical inquiry and thought, a liberation resulting in the scientific revolution, the overthrow of determined, controlled thought, and presented it as the Bringer of a brave new world…

I pointed out that historians are pretty much united in their recognition of the contribution of Protestantism to these things, yes; I lacked your excessive language in doing so, however.

Binary divisions in these conversations do not get us anywhere substantial enough to be important.

"Binary divisions"? Between what and what?

A "binary" division is only bad in things in which a problem is not binary, of course. When it is, they're apt. So you'll have to tell me what "binary" you think I'm making, and why it's not appropriate. I can't seem to locate it.

[Gary Childress]

I don't want anything from you or Phyllo, other than compassion and validation of my feelings. Do you want something of me? And if so, then what is it?

Do you grant to anyone a ‘right’ to want something from you?

If someone wants something from me and I feel like I should give it to them, then I guess in those cases it could be said that I'm granting them the right to want something from me. Do you grant others a right to want something from you?

[Immanuel Can]

I don't want anything from you or Phyllo, other than compassion and validation of my feelings.

Oh. Sorry...I'm not offering that. I can only offer you good advice. Reinforcement of self-defeating feelings doesn't seem to me to be in your interests.

So you refuse to validate my feelings. Instead, you want me to do something. What do you want me to do?

Yep. I want you to "play your hand." I don't ask you to do more than your "cards" allow; but not playing any hand will get you nothing. And that's just obvious.

[Alexis Jacobi]

…

This was my proposal:

I will give you a specific outline— that is if you really want it.

[Gary Childress]

Oh. Sorry...I'm not offering that. I can only offer you good advice. Reinforcement of self-defeating feelings doesn't seem to me to be in your interests.

So you refuse to validate my feelings. Instead, you want me to do something. What do you want me to do?

Yep. I want you to "play your hand." I don't ask you to do more than your "cards" allow; but not playing any hand will get you nothing. And that's just obvious.

What does "playing your hand" mean? What makes you think I'm not "playing my hand" now?