attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:44 pmErgo, here is MY definition of a Jew (since I have never got to know one personally - Seinfeld? Ross? Monica?) As a male, a Jew has his foreskin removed without his consent (since he was far too young to have any control over the decision). A Jew has various degrees of commitment to Judaic 'orthodoxy' - such that a Jew, as also a Christian can hold their own opinions beyond the doctrines pushed upon them, that is, they are free to think for themselves and evaluate what is being taught to them via their religion, and still be considered a Jew. Although, orthodox Jews would likely disagree?
I have walked past Jews in NY. I like films with NY Jews and their "quirky" humour. I had a recent very remote encounter with a Jew in a shop a few weeks ago (I have never met one ever in Oz), and no matter how many times I jumped aisles to pick up random stuff, we kept passing - this old fella - with the lightning proof pad on the back of his head - so eventually, I said to him - tell the boss, I'll try and behave from now on - to which he had a small chuckle.
That's about it. I will say this, since I know what I know re God - the fact that it exists - I respect the fact that certain people within history ascribed their experiences within texts that are the foundations of Christianity (Judaism)
Sort of a pastiche of definitions, isn't it? I did not mean to be evasive and I just wanted to get your sense of what a Jew is.
Historically, a Jew is one who despite all obstacles presented, holds to the identity and the mission provided through being chosen by God (the chosen people, etc.) to convert the Earth in accord with the Plan defined by God himself. That is the classical definition. Christianity extends from that sense of mission and Christianity is a carry-over or a reapplication of the same sense of mission but on a universal scale. Christianity can be seen therefore as a form of Judaism brought into the Gentile world.
There was a time -- not so long ago -- when it was not possible, or far less possible, for a traditional Jew to step out of the restraints and limits of the tradition. Because Jews lived in shtetles and being a Jew was as controlled and determined as being a Christian is in strict religious communities. It would not have been possible not to obey Jewish law (rules & regulations) and to have remained in that community. But it would have been extremely difficult to leave that community as well.
But with the Emancipation -- an effort to free Jews from being strict religious people who needed to 'live apart' in order to fulfill God's project for them (as they conceive it) -- there was an effort to *assimilate* Jews into European cultures. Along with assimilation came various and different definitions of what a Jew is (and isn't). So it is true what you say: one can at least for a generation or so become non-religious and entirely secular and yet still identify as Jewish, but the definition will be 'culturally Jewish' with little, and sometimes no, religious implication.
In my own case I have a
technically Jewish parent (and a
technically Christian parent) who are both post-Jewish and post-Christian insofar as 'being Jewish' and 'being Christian' became irrelevancies. The closest I came to Jewish culture was in the neighborhood enclave I grew up in (somewhat of a preponderance of Jewish families none of which were strictly practicing Jews (just a marginal observation of Jewish Christians more as a buffer against the Christian traditions of Christmas and Easter) and for a couple of summers was sent to JCC summer camps (Jewish Community Center i.e. Reform Judaism of a very 'lite religious' sort (virtually absent). We did not play with dreidels in my house and we did have a Christmas tree . . . If I remember right my parents took us to church a few times. But never to synagog.
At this point I regard both he edifice of Judaism and the edifice of Christianity as 'hallucinated structures'. These are edifices of identification that are upheld by will, habit and desire. But as I have tried to explain I am essentially a
post-manythings. I have explained myself and defined myself as someone on the far side of these former definitions (structures of definition). My own experiences have been (I'd say) completely and utterly gnostic. I have a very
very different defining structure about what Life is and why I am here, et cetera et cetera. I came to them through my own efforts and seeking of experience.
But I am not too different from others writing on this thread. You Atto, also Promethean, likely Dubious (though he shrouds himself) and Nick in numerous areas. Belinda of course. We share common features
directly relational to our post-Christian situation.
Our Father Who Art in Immanuel Can has quite a tough row to hoe with our likes!
I knew all this, I am sure, before I jumped in to researching both Judaism and Christianity (and cultural issues generally) but it was as a result of confronting, or being confronted by, Immanuel Can and his 'active hallucinations' that I realized the degree to which I am an example of the transcending of these identities.
I am happy to answer any other questions that you may have, if you have them.
