What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

[SpheresOfBalance]

What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

What truth?

Exactly

Sounds like you are expressing the truth and claiming it yours.

Nope. I do not subscribe to your concept of the truth.

Then what is it that you express?

Great job, Ron de Weijze! He'll never have an answer for you that stands up to any truth table.

"You can always sense a Religious Zealot, as it's never about truth, but rather them being right."

[chaz wyman]

Sounds like you are expressing the truth and claiming it yours.

Nope. I do not subscribe to your concept of the truth.

Then what is it that you express?

That's my truth. You can agree or disagree. That is what truth is.

[SpheresOfBalance]

You are proposing that there is a 'sub-stratum' of 'actual' reality that informs what our knowledge may come upon in its own right, and thereby are suggesting that human knowlegde is 'incomplete' as humans are coming upon 'more truth' of the universe as we progress in our understanding of the universe. You are proposing that there is a possible 'total universe' of which human knowledge has only grasped a part or portion, and these realities, these truths, universal and human, relate respectivly to the 'basic truth' and 'human knowledge (of truth)'.

Is this a correct statement of you position?

I hope you don't mind that I edited your summation of what you believe is my belief to formulate my answer.

I am proposing that the 'actual' reality is that our knowledge comes in its own time, and thereby that human knowledge is 'incomplete' as humans are coming upon the 'truth' of the universe as they progress in their attempt at understanding the universe. I am proposing that there is a 'total universe' of which human knowledge has only grasped a part or portion, and that these realities, these truths, universal and human, are one in the same. The only difference between them is our proximity to them, thus causing them to appear separate.

[chaz wyman]

The Universe abides, it has no interest; it has no concern; it has no conception; it has no right or wrong; no secrets.
The truth is an ever expanding field of human interest, which opens the universe to our inspection and for our introspection.
The truth is conceived in a way that complies variously with that which corresponds to our views and desires. It is not a thing 'out there' waiting to be uncovered. It is a thing to be erected, as we construct our ever changing view and perspective of the Universe.

[SpheresOfBalance]

The Universe abides, incorrect it's always changing
it has no interest; it has no concern; it has no conception; Here you profess to know everything about the universe which is false
it has no right or wrong; here you are probably correct
no secrets.incorrect, there is still much we don't know
The truth is an ever expanding field of human interest, which opens the universe to our inspection and for our introspection.I see it as a state of being, either it really exists or it doesn't
The truth is conceived in a way that complies variously with that which corresponds to our views and desires. only the way you see it
It is not a thing correct it is not a thing, it's everything
'out there' correct, it's everywhere
waiting to be uncovered I believe it's not waiting, but much of it hasn't been uncovered
It is a thing to be erected, Only in your mind
as we construct our ever changing view and perspective of the Universe.Only you do, REAL scientists posit theory, test it and then decide if in fact they've uncovered the truth, always doubting their conclusion until absolutely certain

First you say it's not a thing, then you say it is, make up your mind

[chaz wyman]

The Universe abides, incorrect it's always changing
it has no interest; it has no concern; it has no conception; Here you profess to know everything about the universe which is false

Here you claim to know what cannot be known. You are an idiot.

it has no right or wrong; here you are correct

Here you claim to know everything about the universe, which is false.

no secrets.incorrect, there is still much we don't know

No knowing, does not mean there are secrets.

The truth is an ever expanding field of human interest, which opens the universe to our inspection and for our introspection.I see it as a state of being

I see you as struggling with a sense of your own reality.

The truth is conceived in a way that complies variously with that which corresponds to our views and desires. only the way you see it

No, for me truth is that which corresponds to evidence and reason. For you truth only corresponds to your personal wishes


It is not a thing correct it is not a thing
'out there' correct, it's everywhere

It only exists in the realm of human ideas. There is nothing you may say to establish it any further without making a fool of yourself - oh wait - you already have.


waiting to be uncovered it's not waiting, but much of it hasn't been uncovered

It is a thing to be erected, as we construct our ever changing view and perspective of the Universe.Only the way you look it it

But then I look with the eyes of reason , you with the eyes of a romantic fool.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Secret first, tenth and eleventh definition:

1. done, made, or conducted without the knowledge of others.

10. a reason or explanation not immediately or generally apparent.

11. a method, formula, plan, etc., known only to the initiated or the few: the secret of happiness; a trade secret.

It was made without our knowledge, as we didn't exist yet.


You're the fool for screaming certainty. Then actually having the audacity to be abusive to people just because you're sitting behind a monitor miles and miles away. The epitome of cowardice! What don't you fear?

[chaz wyman]

Secret first, tenth and eleventh definition:

1. done, made, or conducted without the knowledge of others.

10. a reason or explanation not immediately or generally apparent.

11. a method, formula, plan, etc., known only to the initiated or the few: the secret of happiness; a trade secret.

It was made without our knowledge, as we didn't exist yet.


You're the fool for screaming certainty. Then actually having the audacity to be abusive to people just because you're sitting behind a monitor miles and miles away. The epitome of cowardice! What don't you fear?

I'm surprised you can't see the contradiction in your words.
It is you, not me that is being "certain". Mine is a skeptical position, yours is based on fantasy.
As for cowardice. I'm, mett you face to face and tell you the same thing.

Let's look at you fantasy...

It was made without our knowledge, as we didn't exist yet.

Who "made" it?
How was it made?
What does it look like?
How was it conceived?
In what form does it exist?

[Ron de Weijze]

Chaz, it seems to me that you apply your skepticism or radical uncertainty never to yourself or your own assumptions about others. Is that a fair assessment?

[Bill Wiltrack]

.



What's stopping us from seeing the truth?




.

[SpheresOfBalance]

What's stopping us from seeing the truth.

OK Bill, I can now see that initially you meant "Literally" Seeing. There is also a minds eye which is what I initially took you to mean, which I'm sure you realize. After checking, I was surprised to learn that my take on seeing was actually the first definition at both dictionary.com and oxforddictionaries.com. I thought for sure that your actual intended meaning would have been first on the list, and initially thought that I was a fool for initially believing in a def that was further down on the relevancy hierarchy. I was shocked to find that my initial take, at least in today's society, was in fact first.

So did you initially ask the question to try and trap us within our own assumptions?

I feel I have to remind you that you used the word truth instead of universe, that's not quite fair.

So to answer your question honestly: Because it would seem that our technology in optics and electronics is extremely small by comparison and that the truth may not be a visual venture, from our human perspective, of course.

P.S. Thanks for that flash player, universe resource link, that's really cool. They had a show out many years ago that did something similar, that I've been searching for but I can't remember it's name. It started out at the micro and zoomed out until you saw a house in the suburbs disappear into the backdrop as it continued to zoom all the way beyond our ability to see with telescopes. Then I believe it reversed direction but at a faster pace to take you back home. It was a really cool video effect that included what seemed to be real video footage that seamlessly was merged with CG, I wish I could remember which show it was. I really wanted to get a copy of it. Anyway, Thanks again!

[Bill Wiltrack]

.


You are welcome.


Thank you for participating and adding philosophically intelligent and insightful perspectives into this thread.




.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Who "made" it?
How was it made?
What does it look like?
How was it conceived?
In what form does it exist?

You ask "Who" as if that's the only possible question and shows that in all probability you're a creationist in truth. in the face of "theories," (you do know what a theory is, right?) how could I say, with any truth, that I know?

How? Well again there are many theories, (that someone else has formulated)! Good question!

Visual appearances? are probably moot with the theories of the "Dark" stuff.

How? Again, many theories multiverse, string theories, 11 dimensions, expansion & contraction, big bang, pick one/some!

Form? matter, antimatter, dark "stuff."

You know it's funny that you put me on the spot and ask questions that you can't answer...,

...IN TRUTH!

To be so certain that your version of knowledge is correct says more about your selfishness than it does your selflessness. I've actually jumped into a river at night to save a woman from drowning, despite the fact that I knew that she would probably attempt to drown me in the fray. She said that she couldn't understand why I did it, because she thought I hated her. I told her, that was the difference between her and I!

And no it's not about the projection of my self image for all to see, but a point that may escape you!

You do realize that to some you may appear as a megalomaniac, right?

Of your comment as to my foolish romanticism, I would hope that you've neither, lost a spouse nor never had one, as then your demeanor would be self evident, because as the fab four said: "All you need is love, love is all you need!" And then my heart would have to go out to you, despite your lack of decorum!

[chaz wyman]

Who "made" it?
How was it made?
What does it look like?
How was it conceived?
In what form does it exist?

You ask "Who" as if that's the only possible question and shows that in all probability you're a creationist in truth. in the face of "theories," (you do know what a theory is, right?) how could I say, with any truth, that I know?

How? Well again there are many theories, (that someone else has formulated)! Good question!

A good question which you cannot answer without resorting to human theory. You lose.

Visual appearances? are probably moot with the theories of the "Dark" stuff.

Meaning what?

How? Again, many theories multiverse, string theories, 11 dimensions, expansion & contraction, big bang, pick one/some!

Another good question which you answer with human theories which makes my point for me.

Form? matter, antimatter, dark "stuff."

You know it's funny that you put me on the spot and ask questions that you can't answer...,

...IN TRUTH!

My question were formed because I know they cannot be answered. There is no truth outside the human conception of it, that is why you are floundering.


To be so certain that your version of knowledge is correct says more about your selfishness than it does your selflessness.

Ad hominem waffle. Verbal diarreah without sense or meaning.
We are not talking about 'knowledge' but about truth, btw.

I've actually jumped into a river at night to save a woman from drowning, despite the fact that I knew that she would probably attempt to drown me in the fray. She said that she couldn't understand why I did it, because she thought I hated her. I told her, that was the difference between her and I!

And this adds to the discussion, how?

And no it's not about the projection of my self image for all to see, but a point that may escape you!

You do realize that to some you may appear as a megalomaniac, right?

To a fool like you, I would think that you might think that. But all I did was ask you a few simple questions about your theory of truth, and I find out you do not have one. Al you have is childish insults. You have nothing.

Of your comment as to my foolish romanticism, I would hope that you've neither, lost a spouse nor never had one, as then your demeanor would be self evident, because as the fab four said: "All you need is love, love is all you need!" And then my heart would have to go out to you, despite your lack of decorum!

Why are you not answering my simple questions?
The fact is that you are simply wrong about truth, and are empty headed when it comes to figuring out why you think the way you do. You need to go back and read some philosophy.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Do-You-Think-What/dp/1862079161
Start with something simple.

[SpheresOfBalance]

It was made without our knowledge, as we didn't exist yet.

Who "made" it?
How was it made?
What does it look like?
How was it conceived?
In what form does it exist?

Answer each one of your questions in turn, dazzle us with you brilliance!

...I'm waiting...