The USA and Israel

[bahman]

What about yours. Is slaughtering children and raping civilians "terrorism," or not?

(I'll get to your objection when you give a reasonable answer to mine.)

Yes, they are.

So Hamas are terrorists?

Okay. How does one safely negotiate with people whose only desire is to kill you, and to do so even at the expense of their own lives and the lives of their fellow citizens?

Okay, it is alright with me if you want to evade the discussion. I answered your objection the best I could but it seems that I could not convince you. I think it is my turn to ask for answers to my questions. I thought you believe in objective morality since you have many posts many of them on objective morality. I also thought you are a Christian who is deeply involved in teaching of Jesus, most importantly unconditional love. When it comes to abortion, you say that abortion is not allowed because it is the act of killing an innocent being. I am wondering, how people are allowed to kill each other in your teaching for whatever reason. Israel killed around 20,000 innocent civilians mainly using dumb bombs. Is killing innocent civilians allowed to you but the act of killing a fetus is disallowed? Please consider my objections seriously and answer them properly the best you can. And don't forget that, "love your enemy".

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, they are.

So Hamas are terrorists?

Okay. How does one safely negotiate with people whose only desire is to kill you, and to do so even at the expense of their own lives and the lives of their fellow citizens?

Okay, it is alright with me if you want to evade the discussion. I answered your objection the best I could

Oh. So you have absolutely no workable way Israel can desist without being slaughtered. Well, that means you've got nothing to offer on that subject.

I think it is my turn to ask for answers to my questions. I thought you believe in objective morality since you have many posts many of them on objective morality. I also thought you are a Christian who is deeply involved in teaching of Jesus, most importantly unconditional love.

You think so, do you? Well, you have no answer to mine, but I can easily answer yours.

At no point have I suggested that killing people was right, under any circumstances. Go back and look.

On the other hand, you and I both know that Israel is a secular state, not some kind of Christian republic. As such, nobody can possibly expect it to operate by Christian moral principles. Rather, the most we can expect of it is that it will operate by reasonable, pragmatic and secular ones. And I hope it does operate that way.

So I was asking you what you thought a reasonable secular state could do when faced by an implacable and vicious enemy who will not relent and is determined to murder every last one of their citizens. You've got nothing to offer, you say. You've got no way they can stop fighting without being mass-murdered by Hamas again. And yet, you call for them to stop. And that means, you're calling for Israel to commit suicide.

However, my answer is (as you will see, if you check back) international intervention to remove Hamas permanently from the scene. Since Hamas will not relent, and does not honour ceasefires, and continues to abuse their own citizens in brutal ways, they're leaving nobody any choice. Hamas must be gone.

And that's exactly what I've said.

[bahman]

So Hamas are terrorists?

Okay. How does one safely negotiate with people whose only desire is to kill you, and to do so even at the expense of their own lives and the lives of their fellow citizens?

Okay, it is alright with me if you want to evade the discussion. I answered your objection the best I could

Oh. So you have absolutely no workable way Israel can desist without being slaughtered. Well, that means you've got nothing to offer on that subject.

I answered that but I could not convince you. You ignore and evade my comments and say what if Hamas attacks again! I provide a link that Hamas asked for a permanent cease-fire in exchange for the release of hostages that you ignore. I mentioned that Israelis should not use dumb bombs to reduce civilian causality but you said bombs are bombs...

I think it is my turn to ask for answers to my questions. I thought you believe in objective morality since you have many posts many of them on objective morality. I also thought you are a Christian who is deeply involved in teaching of Jesus, most importantly unconditional love.

You think so, do you? Well, you have no answer to mine, but I can easily answer yours.

At no point have I suggested that killing people was right, under any circumstances. Go back and look.

On the other hand, you and I both know that Israel is a secular state, not some kind of Christian republic. As such, nobody can possibly expect it to operate by Christian moral principles. Rather, the most we can expect of it is that it will operate by reasonable, pragmatic and secular ones. And I hope it does operate that way.

So I was asking you what you thought a reasonable secular state could do when faced by an implacable and vicious enemy who will not relent and is determined to murder every last one of their citizens. You've got nothing to offer, you say. You've got no way they can stop fighting without being mass-murdered by Hamas again. And yet, you call for them to stop. And that means, you're calling for Israel to commit suicide.

However, my answer is (as you will see, if you check back) international intervention to remove Hamas permanently from the scene. Since Hamas will not relent, and does not honour ceasefires, and continues to abuse their own citizens in brutal ways, they're leaving nobody any choice. Hamas must be gone.

And that's exactly what I've said.

So in your opinion, Jesus's death was a committed suicide and vain and Christianity cannot provide a feasible solution for a practical situation? In this regard, Christianity should be dismissed completely, as IC does not think it is useful. Are you aware of what you are saying? To me, you are not a Christian since you don't follow the main message of Christianity, unconditional love, and live your life your way. Are you aware of your final destination as a non-believer, so-called Hell? Are you aware of your conclusion that there cannot be any objective morality under Christianity? Please answer all my questions.

[phyllo]

That's only because Hamas will not surrender and face the justice they deserve, and meanwhile, delights to put its own people in harm's way.

No, that's because Israel doesn't care whether it kills Hamas or Palestinian civilians.

That's an odd supposition. It's bad PR for Israel if they did that. But in point of fact, they've issued orders to evacuate in advance of bombing, and the people have not been allowed to leave the danger area -- by Hamas. Hamas has actually shot some of its own people when they tried to escape being human shields.

Talk about no regard for life!

At least the Israelis TRY to avoid civilian casualties by issuing the warnings and focusing bombing on terrorist infrastructure...and why wouldn't they? It is better for Israel if they do avoid civilian deaths, and no win for them if innocents die. But it's better for Hamas if their own people die, apparently.

Remember that Hamas is the one that's been sending bombs "blind" into Israel, not even caring whom they kill. Remember that Hamas started this whole mess, by massacring civilians. Hamas is the side that kills its own. And Hamas is the one that will not let the fighting stop.

Seems like most of the population was able to leave:

On October 13, Israeli authorities ordered more than a million people in northern Gaza to evacuate their homes. Two months later, almost 1.9 million people – 85 percent of Gaza’s population – are displaced, nearly half crammed inside Rafah, the enclave’s southernmost governorate with a prewar population of 280,000.

People have told me it is almost impossible to walk through Rafah’s crowded streets to find food, water, and medication. Israeli authorities cut off basic services and most aid supplies following the October 7 Hamas-led attack in Israel that resulted in the killing of 1,200 people, mostly civilians, according to the Israeli government.

Most Gaza residents have fled – many multiple times – pursuant to Israeli orders, in search of safety. But there’s no safe place to go and no safe way to get there. According to Gaza’s Health Ministry, at least 19,600 people in Gaza, mostly women and children, have been killed since hostilities began, including in areas to which the Israeli military told them to flee.

On December 1, Israeli authorities published interactive maps designed to guide people to safety. One man sheltering in Rafah told me of his struggles to find electricity to charge his phone, let alone connect to the sporadically functioning internet, amid regular telecommunications blackouts.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/mos ... -harms-way

Still more than 20,000 dead. God knows how many wounded. Living crammed together without adequate food, water or medicine.

And according to Israeli statistics there is a 2 to 1 kill ratio ... two civilians are killed for every Hamas fighter killed.

[Alexis Jacobi]

So...it's not that Hamas was cunning and devious, and hid their plans? And it's not Hamas's fault for raping, murdering and kidnapping civilians? It's the Israeli's fault -- because they should have been paternalisticaly in control of the naive and foolish Gazans, and weren't? That's your argument?

Too funny. Try again.

A couple of notes. A reminder: this is a philosophy forum and we should have a greater respect for sound reasoning and balanced analysis than those in the *outside world*. Yet a great deal of the conversation and argument that does go on is really *partisan bickering*. We can certainly do better and the first step is trying to gain a non-biased stance. That may be hard but it is not impossible.

The principal lesson I have gained from Immanuel Can is how easy it is for a person with a fanatical religious orientation, and in his case an Evangelical and Christian Zionist orientation and commitment, to lie. While I cannot say and do not believe that his lies are conscious and intended (he actually believes what he writes) I have become fascinated with what I understand to be the *psychological problem* that encloses fanaticism.

A fanatic is captured and dominated by overpowering ideas that distort what we would consider to be *normal perception*. The fanatic does not see *reality* he sees what he has broadcast onto reality. He sees his own projection. Projections of this sort -- for example the projection of all evil onto an external enemy -- is a psychological tactic whereby the projector occults his own relationship to that *evil*. It is thus a psychological ploy that results in self-deception.

I am interested here in two words: *cunning* and "devious[ness]" What I suspect -- this is my interpretation of course -- is that Immanuel and many millions of others project all evil onto the enemy and through this tactic avoid self-examination. Naturally I mean political self-examination but it does go farther than just the political domain. In short, and though I repeat myself, within a generally understood Judaic and rabbinic perspective Jews see themselves as Sons of Light in a battle with Sons of Darkness. In the Christian Evangelical perceptual world it is *the Christian* in a war with Satan and his diabolical forces. The same paradigm but one that operates in each case differently.

It is beyond question that Israel received a terrible and if the term has any use a *barbaric* blow by the Hamas fighters. If we are realists though we know that this is war. There is no war or skirmish that I am aware of in recent times that is not essentially barbaric. Once one is engaged in war one is engaged in barbarism. The stronger faction will, naturally, use all its strength and armaments in the boldest and most direct way to *utterly crush* the enemy. The weaker faction will use all tools at its disposal, even though it might not be capable of conventional war, to do the most damage as it can to the stronger enemy.

Hamas is certainly calculating, cunning, wily, and focused on its object: doing all the harm it can to Israel. The armaments that it has at its disposal however are tremendously inferior and therefore it uses what lies to hand. On the other side Israel is no less cunning and devious and is 1,000 times more powerful economically and militarily. Additionally it has as its ally and backer the United States -- the most powerful country in the world and the country with the most developed military. Israel -- technically -- has the advantage. It has 100 times and maybe even 1,000 times more advantage than the Palestinians or the Gazans.

But here's the thing: Israel is not *winning* in this battle. In every area it is losing. Its overreaction has appalled the entire world. It has shown itself weak and powerless when it had broadcast the image of power invincibility. The Israeli economy is heading to substantial disaster. Israeli society, though for the moment united in a will to do all the harm possible to Hamas, to Palestinian civilians, to the infrastructure of Gaza, is still deeply divided and when the smoke lifts the social and political conflicts may indeed tear Israeli society to shreds. (This was happening before October 7th and is related to the same nexus of political errors that brought Israel into existence -- admittedly this is a complex topic). The entire world is reacting to the genocidal and deeply *illegal* destruction of civilians in Gaza. Israel has lost any standing it had. Surrounding countries are now reconsidering their alliances with Israel. And in addition there is a general mood of both Jewish and Israeli suspicion and a deep questioning of Occidental *support* for Israel and principally a criticism of the US unquestioning support for Israel. Many thousands of Israelis have been injured and though no one knows the number of Israeli killed in action it is rumored to be very high. There is another aspect too: though Israel has a powerful and committed military force there is an entire sector in Israeli society that is not at all prepared for war and for protracted fighting. The hot Israeli chicks on Tic-Toc do not a successful military force make. It has been said that Hezbollah's fighters are far superior to Israel's.

In short on all fronts Israel is not *winning* but is suffering debilitating damage. Another important thing must be mentioned: in the United States there is a developing suspicion of and resentment of Jewish-Zionist influence and many more people are exposed to information and perspectives that are critical of Jewish-Zionist activism and power within the government of the US. Obviously, there is a great deal of push-back (against what is termed antisemitism) but I do not think this is going to be swept under the rug. Just the other night I watched what I thought was a pretty balanced examination of the history that has led to the present situation on FrontLine. And this one titled Failure at the Fence.

Both offer pictures of the conflict that have far more depth than is generally allowed in the US media-system. These are mainstream presentations not fringe presentations and many millions will see them and, I suppose, begin to examine their own perceptions but also what has been *fed* them over decades. What most who write here (I assume) do not understand is that for Jewry the situation offered in the United States has been completely unparalleled within Jewish history. The beginning of the loss of that standing is presaged here. And it is said that this comes about through Jewish-Zionist and Israeli-Zionist overreach. They have overplayed their hand. And reaction is developing.

And here we must examine the Hamas attack and what its function was. As a military operation, despite the illegality of indiscriminate rocket firing, despite hostage-taking (also illegal), and despite the wonton killing, and even if there are instances of rape or sexual abuse, nevertheless the Hamas attack is understood to be both audacious and brilliant, even though the resulting counter-attack is likely more severe than they (Hamas) imagined.

Here I suggest that one drop one's affiliations and preferences and try to see things in the light of realism.

Israel has displaced, abused, wounded, killed and raped Palestinians for 70+ years. That is what occupation and conquest involve! Everywhere that it is attempted and undertaken. And what it is doing now -- this I propose but I cannot be sure -- will do such damage to the Israeli state that indeed it might not survive in its present form. You've got to try to see into the future even if you can only guess.

[phyllo]

On the other hand, you and I both know that Israel is a secular state, not some kind of Christian republic. As such, nobody can possibly expect it to operate by Christian moral principles. Rather, the most we can expect of it is that it will operate by reasonable, pragmatic and secular ones. And I hope it does operate that way.

But you're not a "secular state". Yet you appear to agree with everything that Israel is doing.

Where is the "blessed are the peacemakers", "love your enemy", "forgive", "one of the least of these"?

[Alexis Jacobi]

And according to Israeli statistics there is a 2 to 1 kill ratio ... two civilians are killed for every Hamas fighter killed.

Right on the face that cannot be right. If 1/3 of the dead are children, and this is what is reported, and approximately 50% of the dead are women, that points to a very different ratio. Unless women and children are seen as Hamas military.

[phyllo]

And according to Israeli statistics there is a 2 to 1 kill ratio ... two civilians are killed for every Hamas fighter killed.

Right on the fact that cannot be right. If 1/3 of the dead are children, and this is what is reported, and approximately 50% of the dead are women, that points to a very different ratio. Unless women and children are seen as Hamas military.

Those are Israeli statistics that I previously linked:

Around two civilians have been killed for every dead Hamas fighter in the Gaza Strip, senior Israeli military officials admitted Monday, and said the army was deploying high-tech mapping software to try to reduce non-combatant deaths.

The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says Israel's military campaign, in the wake of Hamas attacks on October 7, has killed around 15,900 people so far, most of them women and children.

Asked about media reports that 5,000 Hamas fighters had been killed, one of the senior officials told reporters at a briefing: "The numbers are more or less right.

"I'm not saying it's not bad that we have a ratio of two to one," one of the officials said, adding that the use of human shields was part of Hamas's "core strategy".

"Hopefully it (the ratio) will be much lower" in the coming phase of the war, they added, speaking on condition of anonymity.

https://www.barrons.com/news/israeli-mi ... a-39521f57

[Alexis Jacobi]

But you're not a "secular state". Yet you appear to agree with everything that Israel is doing.

Where is the "blessed are the peacemakers", "love your enemy", "forgive", "one of the least of these"?

No State can act in accord with Christian principles. The interests of a State cannot be squared with the conduct of an individual who could, in the best of circumstances, live and act in accord with Christian ethics. All States are vicious entities. They are *power-systems* and can only be examined as such.

OTOH it is possible, within society, and between people, for Christian ethics to be valued and to operate.

Where Immanuel seems to go off the rails is because of his inner metaphysical position. It is a tenet of Christian Zionism that a Christian must *support the Jews* and through that support gain what they call *the blessing* of the Jewish god. I put the emphasis on "Jewish" because within Christian Zionism the *god* they seem to worship is not Christian in any sense that we could relate to. It is militaristic, violent, cruel and thoughtless entity (a god-concept) which, weirdly, is a projection of unsettled inner content.

And it has to be at least mentioned that the *god* that Orthodox Hebraists talk about and worship is the same strange entity. It is an entity that is defined as favoring and sponsoring genocide if it involves the destruction of Jewry's (and Israel's) enemies. What ever *god* it is has no relation to the former Christian notion of what god is (or perhaps I should say 'should be').

Immanuel -- notice he uses the Talmudic term HaShem ("the word" or "name" because the name of god cannot be spoken or written) gives away his longing to be associated with Jewish interests and Jewish destiny. It is a sick relationship. And Immanuel demonstrates how this sickness functions.

Really, these are sick concepts and when you go into the heart of them you discover conflict, distortion and confusion.

[phyllo]

No State can act in accord with Christian principles. The interests of a State cannot be squared with the conduct of an individual who could, in the best of circumstances, live and act in accord with Christian ethics. All States are vicious entities. They are *power-systems* and can only be examined as such.

OTOH it is possible, within society, and between people, for Christian ethics to be valued and to operate.

I'm shocked.

We're stuck with endless killing and destruction? Not to mention unethical practices in mundane day to day affairs.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Oh. So you have absolutely no workable way Israel can desist without being slaughtered. Well, that means you've got nothing to offer on that subject.

Weirdly, the question you seem to ask is not a bad one.

Israel can certainly *desist* (stop bombing, stop the ground invasion, stop the losses it is receiving, and resort instead to targeted killing of Hamas officials) but when it does so it will have to fact what it had done (what is perceived as attacks on civilian infrastructure, what looks like a *slaughter* of civilians, along with some declarations of genocidal intent by various officials).

It is in a trap however: if Israel stops, the reckoning begins. Even *stopping* will put the government in danger from factions within society that want to overturn the present government. Netanyahu is in deep trouble politically, but as Miko Peled said there is no other option at this moment. There is no one that can replace him.

Israel can desist and it certainly will not be *slaughtered* since it can stave off further attacks as it has for decades. But the declared intention of Hamas will remain, that much is certain.

The best course for Israel is therefore a good question. It will have to face the fact of the necessity of a complete shift in how it relates to the Palestinian question. In fact there is no other option. If it tries to carry on again as it had, in Gaza and in the Territories, the problem will continue. It is stuck insofar as those settlements will need to be demolished -- and that is also a trap. It has to do that, but it cannot.

Israel is in a terrible fix and there is no way out of it.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I'm shocked.

We're stuck with endless killing and destruction? Not to mention unethical practices in mundane day to day affairs.

I do not think that realism necessarily must involve an emotional reaction (being shocked or appalled).

[Immanuel Can]

Okay, it is alright with me if you want to evade the discussion. I answered your objection the best I could

Oh. So you have absolutely no workable way Israel can desist without being slaughtered. Well, that means you've got nothing to offer on that subject.

I answered that but I could not convince you.

You had no answer a sensible and moral person could possibly accept. Effectively, you're asking Israel to accept total annihilation, and you can't think of an alternative. No wonder you couldn't convince me...or them, obviously. Nobody SHOULD be convinced by such bad logic or immoral conclusions.

I provide a link that Hamas asked for a permanent cease-fire in exchange for the release of hostages that you ignore.

I didn't "ignore" it. I pointed out that Hamas can't be trusted, because they lie and then attack again.

...you said bombs are bombs...

They are. But let's play along with your "dumb" game, there: what kind of bombs are the rockets that Hamas is still shooting into Israel?

That's right! They're the "dumbest" of all bombs...just explosives shot off in the general direction of cities, with absolutely no means to be directed to particular military targets. Hamas is shooting NOTHING BUT "dumb" bombs.

So where's that argument in relation to Hamas?

So in your opinion, Jesus's death was a committed suicide...

Nobody said any such thing. What are you smoking?

What I said was what you know to be true. Israel is not a Christian entity. They'll proudly tell you so themselves. How are we going to impose Christian moral values on them? What means do you have to do that?

But as a Christian, I have a solution I can suggest, though I cannot enforce it: an overwhelming international opposition to Hamas would force Hamas to surrender, and would destroy their strategy of mobilizing the world against Israel, which is what they're trying to do by killing their own citizens and keeping the genocidal war going. If they had no "win," they would have to give up, and would be subject to international justice. And that's absolutely the best way to save lives on all sides, both Israeli and Gazan.

Why would you prefer to see people continue to die, and Gazans live under the thumb of a cruel regime that outrageously exploits them, and murders not only Israelis but their own people? Why are you on the side of the homicidal maniacs who started this situation and keep it going?

[Immanuel Can]

Living crammed together without adequate food, water or medicine.

Do you know why Gaza has no power or water of its own? They're relatively cheap to produce, you know...certainly far cheaper than munitions and tunnels, and there was plenty of means to do it.

Because Hamas will not let its own people have it. They stole all the billions in international aid sent into Gaza, and denied their people even the right to drill for their own water (Hamas banned that in 2015). So Gazans became totally dependent on Israel for those things, and then Hamas viciously attacked Israel.

Now, if somebody (let's imagine it was Russia) came into your country (let's say it was Ukraine), and murdered, raped and tortured your citizens and told you they wanted Ukraine to become part of Russia...and then added that they wanted every single Ukrainian dead and would not stop until it happened...what would you advise Ukrainians to do?

[Immanuel Can]

On the other hand, you and I both know that Israel is a secular state, not some kind of Christian republic. As such, nobody can possibly expect it to operate by Christian moral principles. Rather, the most we can expect of it is that it will operate by reasonable, pragmatic and secular ones. And I hope it does operate that way.

But you're not a "secular state". Yet you appear to agree with everything that Israel is doing.

You're wrong. And if you look back, you'll see I've never said or even hinted at any such thing. What I've consistently asked is simply, "What's your plan for ending the conflict without getting all the Israelis killed?" And I've seen no such plan, so far.

But if you've got one, trot it out.