The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:30 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:29 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:26 pm
A thought-terminating cliche.

The answer to the question "Why do objects with mass attract each other?" which makes you go "Oh! OK."...

The shortest response which makes you stop asking questions.

That's instrumentalism for you. Much better to keep asking philosophical questions like 'What causes gravity?'

Yeah... What causes objets with mass to attract each other?

The curvature of spacetime causes it.

That's the least underdetermined story so far.

Well then, determine a better story.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:30 pmYeah... What causes objets with mass to attract each other?

The curvature of spacetime causes it.

That's the least underdetermined story so far.

It is just as underdetermined as rival theories like loop quantum gravity and string theory. Einstein's field equations are consistent with his story that spacetime is a malleable substance that is warped by mass, that is the only evidence we have that spacetime is in fact a malleable substance that is warped by mass.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:49 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:30 pmYeah... What causes objets with mass to attract each other?

The curvature of spacetime causes it.

That's the least underdetermined story so far.

It is just as underdetermined as rival theories like loop quantum gravity and string theory. Einstein's field equations are consistent with his story that spacetime is a malleable substance that is warped by mass, that is the only evidence we have that spacetime is in fact a malleable substance that is warped by mass.

Which goes to show you keep moving the goalposts on the criteria for underdeterminacy.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:51 pmWhich goes to show you keep moving the goalposts on the criteria for underdeterminacy.

No. It shows you don't understand underdetermination.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:54 pm No. It shows you don't understand underdetermination.

No, it really goes go show that you don't understand model selection.

The determination of "betterness" according to whatever criteria.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:56 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:54 pm No. It shows you don't understand underdetermination.

No, it really goes go show that you don't understand model selection.

The determination of "betterness" according to whatever criteria.

Which shows again that you don't understand underdetermination.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:20 pm Which shows again that you don't understand underdetermination.

I understand determination. Choice.

Under or over determination seems relative.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:25 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:20 pm Which shows again that you don't understand underdetermination.

I understand determination. Choice.

Under or over determination seems relative.

Right. Well find out what underdetermination means, and if you care to, get back to me. I can't be arsed to argue with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:29 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:25 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:20 pm Which shows again that you don't understand underdetermination.

I understand determination. Choice.

Under or over determination seems relative.

Right. Well find out what underdetermination means, and if you care to, get back to me. I can't be arsed to argue with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Right well, find out what the root of the word "underdetermination" is; then find out what it means and get back to me.

I can't be arsed to waste my time going back and forth with somebody who doesn't even understand what it means to determine something.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:30 pmRight well, find out what the root of the word "underdetermination" is; then find out what it means and get back to me.

Unless you are a

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:11 pmf****** language Nazi.

that's not how language works.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:43 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:30 pmRight well, find out what the root of the word "underdetermination" is; then find out what it means and get back to me.

Unless you are a

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:11 pmf****** language Nazi.

that's not how language works.

A Nazi prescribes. I am describing.

It's very much how language works.

In the philosophy of science, underdetermination or the underdetermination of theory by data (sometimes abbreviated UTD) is the idea that evidence available to us at a given time may be insufficient to determine what beliefs we should hold in response to it.

Overdetermination occurs when a single-observed effect is determined by multiple causes, any one of which alone would be sufficient to account for ("determine") the effect.

In both cases we are dealing with determination. Surprise! Surprise!

Underdetermination.
Overdetermination.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:45 pmUnderdetermination.
Overdetermination.

Ah good, you've finally done some research. So, how am I moving the goalposts?

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:49 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:45 pmUnderdetermination.
Overdetermination.

Ah good, you've finally done some research.

Finally? You have the memory of a gold fish.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 11:02 am

uwot wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 10:58 am Underdeterminism isn't meant to 'work', it just is.

Is it? How did you determine that given the alternative? Overdetermination.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:49 pm So, how am I moving the goalposts?

If you have determied that ALL stories are underdetermined then it's not possible to determine that any stories are overdetermined.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:52 pm If you have determied that ALL stories are underdetermined then it's not possible to determine that any stories are overdetermined.

Apparently some arse wipe you linked to has 'overdeterminism' as a rational concept ..FFS

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:52 pm If you have determied that ALL stories are underdetermined then it's not possible to determine that any stories are overdetermined.

Duh!

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:46 amIf you accept Cartesian grade scepticism, then the hypothesis that you are being deceived and everything you experience is the product of an evil demon, becomes a working hypothesis. There is no conceivable experiment you could conduct that could falsify such an idea, making it underdetermined and therefore, every other idea as well.

Once you reject Cartesian grade scepticism, you can skip along with your preferred story and accept the evidence presented to you in that context. So for example, in my world view, and no doubt yours, it is not the case that 'the world is flat' and 'the world is an oblate sphere' are equally underdetermined. There is way more evidence to demonstrate that the world is the latter, which, as your research will inform you, means it is overdetermined.