Philosophy Now Forum

thedoc wrote:

Harbal wrote:

thedoc wrote: I was referring to the details of the play not the message.

Will someone tell me what the bloody message is?

God is offering forgiveness for your sins, If you don't believe you have any sins, then you are very good or very delusional, I would suspect the latter, in which case you will not see the message.

That's entertaining. Not tactful, but not wrong either.

My thought was rather to put it this way: that there is a God, and He is not distant, indifferent and uninvolved with our suffering, like the "god" of the Deists, or hateful toward us like the "god" of the Gnostics. To know Him is to know that He is love. He means good toward us, despite all that we suffer. For we suffer because of our freedom to choose to ignore God.

In fact, His compassion and willingness to intervene on our behalf extends so far as to offer us forgiveness for our sins and failings, healing for our selves, and even a path through death and beyond. This, He assured to us by coming to us incarnate in His Son and providing that way, even at the cost of death.

The Resurrection is the seal of His intentions toward us, the guarantee of his advocacy for us and His provision of that way, and that assurance of a righteous end to, and deliverance from the presence and plague of evil.

But God stops short of forcing us to accept all that He has done, because compelled love is a contradiction in terms, and an ultimate love relationship is God's aim. Our freedom of conscience and choice is also secured in the Resurrection; for we may believe in it or not, and receive the good of it or not, at our decision.

Or to put it even more simply, and in Biblical words,

God so loved the World
That He gave His unique Son;
That whoever believes in Him
Should not perish, but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)

Harbal wrote: I don't see how forgiveness can be meaningful unless it comes from the person you've hurt.

You're right to say that one kind of forgiveness needs to come from the offended party. Certainly.
But is that all? Given that both you and he (or she) are creations of God, endowed with rights and dignity from Him, and charged with responsibilities derived from Him, he (or she) who harms such a creature also strikes against the One who made that person in the first place, and who installed him (or her) on earth. The one who sins challenges God, "Are you really so righteous?"

Ultimately, all sins are not just against people, but against God Himself as well. And while securing forgiveness from the most proximal offended party may deal with one aspect of that, it does little for the darkness of soul that led us to do the evil in the first place, and nothing to address the offense against the righteous nature of God.

Harbal wrote:

thedoc wrote: God is offering forgiveness for your sins, If you don't believe you have any sins, then you are very good or very delusional, I would suspect the latter, in which case you will not see the message.

If by "sins" you mean acts that hurt other people then, yes, there have been some. Any forgiveness would have to come from the people I've wronged, and even then, that in itself wouldn't stop me from feeling guilty. I don't see how forgiveness can be meaningful unless it comes from the person you've hurt.

There is a great deal in Christian theology that addresses forgiveness, but one very important factor is that you forgive yourself and others. It is not always necessary for the other person to forgive you especially if they don't see any wrong.

At the beginning of the service where I attend there is the brief order of confession and forgiveness where the entire congregation admits that there has been sin of some kind, known or unknown, and the asking for forgiveness of that sin.

I agree with what IC has posted, he is much more eloquent than I am.

Harbal wrote: If by "sins" you mean acts that hurt other people then, yes, there have been some. Any forgiveness would have to come from the people I've wronged, and even then, that in itself wouldn't stop me from feeling guilty. I don't see how forgiveness can be meaningful unless it comes from the person you've hurt.

Have you forgive the other person for the act which caused you to hurt them in the first place, I find it difficult to believe that you would hurt someone without cause.

thedoc wrote:There is a great deal in Christian theology that addresses forgiveness, but one very important factor is that you forgive yourself and others.

There was no reason for the book of Revelation to address this issue at all:
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." -Revelation 17:17, a description of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in chapter and verse.

Immanuel Can wrote:
In fact, His compassion and willingness to intervene on our behalf extends so far as to offer us forgiveness for our sins and failings,

If I do wrong to someone, they alone have the ability to forgive me. If forgiveness comes from anywhere else it is meaningless. Forgiving someone for something they've done to someone else is not that difficult and has very little value.

healing for our selves, and even a path through death and beyond. This, He assured to us by coming to us incarnate in His Son and providing that way, even at the cost of death.

Even if I believed in God I would not be able to see how being "healed" is a logical consequence of Christ's death.

The Resurrection is the seal of His intentions toward us, the guarantee of his advocacy for us and His provision of that way, and that assurance of a righteous end to, and deliverance from the presence and plague of evil.

How is it that? There's the event: death, resurrection etc. What you are saying comes from that sounds completely arbitrary to me, where's the connection?

Our freedom of conscience and choice is also secured in the Resurrection; for we may believe in it or not, and receive the good of it or not, at our decision.

People don't come back to life after they've been executed. You can't really be saying it is good for us to abandon our sense of reason, can you?

Or to put it even more simply, and in Biblical words,

God so loved the World
That He gave His unique Son;
That whoever believes in Him
Should not perish, but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)

That hardly makes things any clearer.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Harbal wrote: I don't see how forgiveness can be meaningful unless it comes from the person you've hurt.

You're right to say that one kind of forgiveness needs to come from the offended party. Certainly.
But is that all? Given that both you and he (or she) are creations of God, endowed with rights and dignity from Him, and charged with responsibilities derived from Him, he (or she) who harms such a creature also strikes against the One who made that person in the first place, and who installed him (or her) on earth. The one who sins challenges God, "Are you really so righteous?"

I simply don't believe all that. If I do wrong, it is purely a matter between myself and those I've hurt.

thedoc wrote: Have you forgive the other person for the act which caused you to hurt them in the first place, I find it difficult to believe that you would hurt someone without cause.

I have hurt people through thoughtlessness, selfishness and, no doubt sometimes, plain meanness. There are one or two things that I will never forgive myself for and even if I believed that God had forgiven me it wouldn't make any difference, it wouldn't stop me knowing about my own failings.

The doc wrote:

What many here seem to not understand is that the crucifixion was a drama played out for the people of the time, to teach a message that they could then pass on to their decedents. The play was not meant for the people of this time, witness everyone trying to tear it apart, people criticize the drama, but miss the message.

You confuse the Jesus of history with the Christ of faith. The Romans crucified hundreds of Jews. Pontius Pilate was a cruel and inefficient ruler of Palestine. But THE Crucifixion of Christ and its message is part of the Christ myth ,part of "the drama" if you like, but it's not part of history.

The Christ myth remains a powerful myth on more than one level of interpretation. Christ's prayer on the Cross "forgive them for they know not what they do" illustrates a moral philosophy of forgiveness which is most helpful on the psychological level, and is well worth studying. This particular forgiveness applies to eternity; it's not the same as ordinary everyday decent forgiveness which requires that the wrongdoer asks for forgiveness and makes reparation if they can .

Belinda wrote:Christ's prayer on the Cross "forgive them for they know not what they do" illustrates a moral philosophy...

No, the only moral philosophy is Revelation 17:17 referred to earlier.

Greta wrote:Hi Belinda. It's absolutely fabulous to have to join in, relatively speaking.

Does eternity only exist in a relative sense or is it a theoretical construct based on our observations as small things within very much larger things?

Eternity has to either be or not be, so eternity isn't relatively this or that. Our point of view from this relative world is a different point of view from that of eternity. Like the rabbit/duck drawing which is also absolutely the duck or absolutely the rabbit at any one time, cannot be relatively duck.

BTW eternal isn't a synonym for everlasting. I think you are right that our observations of particular things are the bases of our constructs of very much larger things. I'd add to "larger things" also abstract things such as quantities, and also fantasies . In this sort of manner the more creative of us invent myths, poems, novels, i.e. narratives that express large abstract ideas (such as absolute forgiveness for instance).The less creative of us invent narratives which are relatively meaningless and at most have entertainment value e.g. pornography.

thedoc wrote:God is offering forgiveness for your sins...

How is anyone supposed to know when that happens. Is there an assessment which follows which which gives us the current status of our sin account...or is it merely confessing to priests who have committed at least as many themselves.

Dubious wrote:

thedoc wrote:God is offering forgiveness for your sins...

How is anyone supposed to know when that happens. Is there an assessment which follows which which gives us the current status of our sin account...or is it merely confessing to priests who have committed at least as many themselves.

It's best to be independent if possible of priests and therapists and look at forgiveness from the point of view of eternity. One way to do it which appeals to practical people is to conceive of your crimes/sins/ failures/ shames, etc. against the background of this planet when the vast continents were in the process of forming and this at least, while it's not as resounding as eternity, it does give a sense of proportion.

Again, "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." -Revelation 17:17, a description of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in chapter and verse. There is nothing for anyone to forgive. "The evil that lurks in the minds of men is manifested in the collective evil of the beast. Understand the man and you cannot be deceived by his institutions." and the false prophets directing them. -from "The Ouzo Prophecy"

Dubious wrote:

thedoc wrote:God is offering forgiveness for your sins...

How is anyone supposed to know when that happens. Is there an assessment which follows which which gives us the current status of our sin account...or is it merely confessing to priests who have committed at least as many themselves.

The priest or minister is irrelevant, ignore the messenger and look at the message, that is what is important. The Priest or minister could be the meanest, most despicable person ever, and it wouldn't matter, what matters is your relationship with God. As long as the messenger delivers the message correctly, that is all that matters.