Philosophy Now Forum

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote: My statement was simply a suggestion that in order for you to be rational, you should discard your personal experience.

all our knowledge proceeds from personal experience how can we discard it

A priori knowledge isn't based on experience.

John wrote:

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote: My statement was simply a suggestion that in order for you to be rational, you should discard your personal experience.

all our knowledge proceeds from personal experience how can we discard it

A priori knowledge isn't based on experience.

not what i wrote

read your kant

all knowledge begins with experience

if i never saw two things being added to two things and usually but not always resulting in four things the a priori idea that 2 + 2 = 4 would not have occurred to me

chaz wyman wrote:All this simply begs the question why an atheist likes to call himself Jewish?

thats a bit like asking why would an atheist refer to themselves as texan

there are plenty of texan atheists

but they have a great deal in common with texan baptists

it is a culture heavily influenced by religion in both good and bad ways and held together to some extent by ideas proceeding from religion

Kayla wrote:

John wrote:

Kayla wrote:all our knowledge proceeds from personal experience how can we discard it

A priori knowledge isn't based on experience.

not what i wrote

read your kant

all knowledge begins with experience

I think you forgot the rest of the quote that says "but it does not follow that it arises from experience" and Kant also wrote that a priori knowledge is "knowledge that is absolutely independent of all experience" so I assumed you were disagreeing with him.

Anyway, just because Kant says something doesn't make it so and at 4PM when I'm seriously thinking of sloping off from work a debate on the relative merits of analytic and synthetic a priori knowledge is something I think I'll pass on for now.

Kayla wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:All this simply begs the question why an atheist likes to call himself Jewish?

thats a bit like asking why would an atheist refer to themselves as texan

there are plenty of texan atheists

but they have a great deal in common with texan baptists

it is a culture heavily influenced by religion in both good and bad ways and held together to some extent by ideas proceeding from religion

It's not like that at all. One is a total lack of religion, the other is a religion. It's more like saying you are a religious atheist.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Kayla wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:All this simply begs the question why an atheist likes to call himself Jewish?

thats a bit like asking why would an atheist refer to themselves as texan

there are plenty of texan atheists

but they have a great deal in common with texan baptists

it is a culture heavily influenced by religion in both good and bad ways and held together to some extent by ideas proceeding from religion

It's not like that at all. One is a total lack of religion, the other is a religion. It's more like saying you are a religious atheist.

Even if one assumed that the only reason a person is a Jew is because of religious affiliation, the fact is that there are atheist Jews. You are assuming that every member of the Jewish religion is a theist, which is not true at all. I personally know rabbis who are atheist.

Anyway, just because Kant says something doesn't make it so

of course not

i was pointing at an argument i largely accept rather than repeating it

if you reject it - or my interpretation - the mere fact that a famous philosopher made the argument is not important

Kayla wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:All this simply begs the question why an atheist likes to call himself Jewish?

thats a bit like asking why would an atheist refer to themselves as texan

there are plenty of texan atheists

but they have a great deal in common with texan baptists

it is a culture heavily influenced by religion in both good and bad ways and held together to some extent by ideas proceeding from religion

No, its more like an atheist calling himself Muslim of Christian. Texas is a place there is not corresponding place that marks a jew. Israelis call themselves Israeli. Jews that are not religious - what is it they are trying to be? What make them different?

chaz wyman wrote:

Kayla wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:All this simply begs the question why an atheist likes to call himself Jewish?

thats a bit like asking why would an atheist refer to themselves as texan

there are plenty of texan atheists

but they have a great deal in common with texan baptists

it is a culture heavily influenced by religion in both good and bad ways and held together to some extent by ideas proceeding from religion

No, its more like an atheist calling himself Muslim of Christian. Texas is a place there is not corresponding place that marks a jew. Israelis call themselves Israeli. Jews that are no religious - what is it they are trying to be? What make them different?

Her point Chaz, was you have your anti-semitic head up your ass. I already explained that there are atheist Jews. That is a fact you completely ignore, because it doesn't fit your narrow-minded world view. Besides which, you still can't get around the genetic studies. You never did clarify either why you at times claim to be a Jew, while mouthing off anti-semitic crap about the Jews controlling the US economy, and being khazars, and then claiming you aren't a Jew. You really need to stop visiting those white-supremacist and conspiracytard sites on the net, they rot your brain.

I think as earlier contributors have pointed out it does depend on you particular view of what God is. Stephen Hawkin does not deny the principle of God as an originator of the universe but seems to feel that it does not have an hand in the running of the universe now and that is left to physical laws. I can understand how this view of God is compatible with science. The ultimate questions in science seem to raise theories as speculative as religious views – I remember a classic Terry Pratchet quote that comes to mind in these sorts of discussions ‘in the beginning there was nothing, then it exploded’.
Alternatively a view of religion which has a being which one can pray to to intervene in the physical universe which can effectively alter the physical laws is more difficult to reconcile with science. Either there are immutable physical laws or there aren’t.
I am always fascinated by the question that if there was an originator which set our physical universe in motion, What happened to it?

So basically you are claiming that genetically the Jew is a race, a la the Nazis. Does this mean that there are real Jews and non-real Jews? As I thought that I could convert and be Jewish. Although I have heard that if you do not have a Jewish mother then some would not consider you Jewish?

I believe in God. Not one you can put in your back pocket. I believe God is the first observer. the giver of choice. oh yes was it not Albert Einstein who said that he would like to know the thoughts of God.

Arising_uk wrote:So basically you are claiming that genetically the Jew is a race, a la the Nazis. Does this mean that there are real Jews and non-real Jews? As I thought that I could convert and be Jewish. Although I have heard that if you do not have a Jewish mother then some would not consider you Jewish?

What I have stated is that Jews are defined in different ways. The orthodox disagree with the reform jews, who disagree with the humanistic jews, etc. So, just like among christians, with their own varied definitions of what it means to be a Christian, you have the same thing going on with the various denominations in Juadaism, some of which are atheistic, others not.

In addition, there is the definition of Jews from a genetic basis. I never once stated that Jews are a race, races do not exist among humans. I even stated insofar as ethnic groups may exist among humans, the genetic studies support a Jewish ethnic group. That's true. Chaz had no problem defining Jews biologically, as long as it promoted his khazar conspiracytard crap. But, the moment I cited a real scientific study that showed Jews share common DNA, and they can be genetically shown to have come from the mid-east, well, all of a sudden, Chaz runs away from the genetic studies.

As far as your reference to Hitler is concerned, what does Hitler have to do with scientific reality? Not a damn thing. Is there any evidence in any genetic study that Jews are evil and should be murdered off? No. So, how does citing to any genetic study regarding Jews being genetically related support Hitler or the nazis? It doesn't.

Here is the real rub though, which most people don't realize: Judaism is not just a religion, never was, and never, unlike other religions, remained static in outlook. You do find this mindset among Orthodox Jews, but many Jews actually figured out that Judaism includes religious, political, economic thought, philosophical thought, i.e., a Jewish cultural mindset that has continually evolved through thousands of years. Most people think if they take an idea, usually out of context, that Jews had 2,000 years ago, that this somehow reflects what they believe today. It doesn't. If you want to talk about Jewish ideas of 2,000 years ago, then compare them to other people's ideas of 2,000 years ago. If you want to compare them to modern ideas, then one is being an idiot, one should in such a case compare modern Jewish ideas with what other groups are thinking today. It's sort of like thinking Americans are still into slavery because 200 years ago there was slavery in America. You can't define a modern American solely by reference to American ideas of 200 plus years ago, and you certainly cannot define a modern Jew by ideas thousands of years old. Some people are Jews based on their association with a Jewish culture, and not a religion.

Arising_uk wrote:So basically you are claiming that genetically the Jew is a race, a la the Nazis. Does this mean that there are real Jews and non-real Jews? As I thought that I could convert and be Jewish. Although I have heard that if you do not have a Jewish mother then some would not consider you Jewish?

as i understand it jews are not so much a race as a tribe

most members of that tribe share common ethnicity - as shown by genetic markers

however it is possible to join the tribe - so someone converting to judaism does not simply convert to a different religion but joins a tribal - for lack of a better word - group

so someone is jewish if they have a jewish mother or converted to judaism

as i understand it there is some diagreement among the jews about whether or not the matrilineal descent is required

Accepting a group as defined by genetics is a racist position.