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Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:13 am
by Bernard
When I first began to carve in wood I was advised to let the wood dictate what is going to happen. It has been the most useful bit of advice - serving me over twenty years. Obviously one must consider grain direction, features etcetera, but it seems too much for our brains to be able to add up all the qualities of the medium before our eyes in order to arrive at a form; rather one needs to either have a form already envisaged and than impose that upon whatever medium is going to be most functional toward the required result, or use a combination of one's examination of the medium and what it does visually with one's imagination to arrive at a potential form within it. It takes a lot of discipline to allow imagination its thing yet still remain realistic about what is achievable: In using this latter method, my experience is that primary 'visions' of what's achievable in any block of wood need to remain basic and amorphous to begin with - too detailed and you set yourself confines that eventually limit what can be discovered and actuated. The detail comes as further delight and surprise during the final stages.

Some of my gear is here. Enjoy!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23232748@N08/

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:43 am
by artisticsolution
Hi Tom, Chaz and Bernard,

Bernard, that was delightfully written.
Bernard wrote:When I first began to carve in wood I was advised to let the wood dictate what is going to happen. It has been the most useful bit of advice - serving me over twenty years. Obviously one must consider grain direction, features etcetera, but it seems too much for our brains to be able to add up all the qualities of the medium before our eyes in order to arrive at a form; rather one needs to either have a form already envisaged and than impose that upon whatever medium is going to be most functional toward the required result, or use a combination of one's examination of the medium and what it does visually with one's imagination to arrive at a potential form within it. It takes a lot of discipline to allow imagination its thing yet still remain realistic about what is achievable: In using this latter method, my experience is that primary 'visions' of what's achievable in any block of wood need to remain basic and amorphous to begin with - too detailed and you set yourself confines that eventually limit what can be discovered and actuated. The detail comes as further delight and surprise during the final stages.
This is why I think all is art, Arising. It is simply because everything, no matter what can become art to the artist. If it goes unnoticed by some, that doesn't mean it is not art. The next person can come by and be inspired. So it need not matter that everyone think everything is art, the fact that it may become art at anytime through the eyes of an artist is all that matters.

Chaz says it best here:

Art is best enjoyed by looking and touching and feeling (internally). When you spill ink and talk and talk about it you impose an intellectual interpretation upon it, smothering the art with words.
Take Homi Bhabha's remarks about Anish Kapoor his friend's work:
"The True Sign of Emptiness
It may be the most valuable insight into Anish Kapoor’s work to suggest that the presence of an object can render a space more empty than mere vacancy could ever envisage. This quality of an excessive, engendering emptiness is everywhere visible in his work. It is a process that he associates with the contrary, yet correlated, forces of withdrawal and disclosure, ‘drawing in towards a depth that marks and makes a new surface, that keeps open the whole issue of the surface, the surface tension...
If you think that you have seen ‘emptiness’ as that hole at the heart of the material’s mass, surrounded by a planished facade, then think again. To see the void as a contained negative space indented in the material is only to apprehend its physicality. To figure the depth of the void as providing a perspectival absence within the frame or the genre is to linger too long with the pedagogy of manufacture or the technology of taste. "

He is crafting his own art in words. This has nothing to do with the art which has to be a personal experience and can only be diminished by Bhabha's showing off.


This is precisely why I said it would be more beneficial for all people to learn to be artists rather than mathematicians. I am not taking anything away from math...it's just without art and art training as far as being able to stretch your intellect and mind in order to "see" things that may not exist yet, then what good is math? What good is math if you are constantly getting the same answers and following the same rules? What new can come of that? Certainly no math ever created anything without the use of practical creativity. Any mathematician can figure out how to build something...but they may not be able to know what they want to build. That is where art comes in...it helps the mathematician know what is important enough to use his math skills for...or as in Tom's post...to be able to collaborate with an object, (and this is where I part from Toms post regarding 'Statuary' and 'sculpture proper') be it what ever creative form one "takes" or tries.

Granted Tom, I will admit that getting your hands dirty and diving into some clay is waaaaaay satisfying....but that doesn't not mean one technique of art is "better" than another. It depends on the artist. I think what matters is that art is what a person wants it to be...and should always remain such in order for art to be constantly changing, growing, confusing people, bringing others to anger...whatever the creativity needs.... as an outlet.

The reason I say I would much prefer for all to learn art, is once you start seeing things from a unique perspective....like that of an artist...the sky is the limit. There is no holding you back....and it builds on itself. Just when you think you learned it all...you get another piece of the puzzle to make you take notice of something you had never seen before....and it is then that you realize that you are "collaborating"an inanimate object. I know that sounds wierd...but it is more true for me now than ever. When I allow the art to take over and so what it wills instead of me taking control and forcing it....it is way better than anything I could have done on my own.

And as far as sculpture goes....sculpture is the same as drawing or painting...you're just doing it in 3D. The same rules apply, but that is not where the collaboration/'magic' comes in....

Today, I was painting a mural....and I let my mind drift....I held a very loose brush and I allowed the wall to direct my brush where it wanted it to go....and it was incredible....the wall made my brush which was held by me...move in a way I would not have done it...or wanted to do it. I gave the wall control and did not question it...even when I thought it was "doing it wrong" (lol yes...I had a little control issue with the wall....I fought back at first...then surrendered...lol.) Anyway, the wall was right....and the clay is right too. An artist has to know when to let go...

Chaz is right Tom. The best way to understand art is to try it. But do not go with fear...and don't think you aren't good. No one is better than Tom to create Tom's art. All you will learn in art class is technique....that is just a skill like anything else...but to communicate with clay or paint or whatever...no one can teach you. You just have to experience it.

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:29 am
by Arising_uk
artisticsolution wrote:This is why I think all is art, Arising. It is simply because everything, no matter what can become art to the artist. If it goes unnoticed by some, that doesn't mean it is not art. The next person can come by and be inspired. So it need not matter that everyone think everything is art, the fact that it may become art at anytime through the eyes of an artist is all that matters. ...
Only to you and that's the point about your statement, it makes Art meaningless. I can just as well say its all philosophy, its all economics, its all maths, its all physics, its all chemistry, its all biology, its all politics, etc, etc. but we've been on this endless merry-go-round, so I'll leave it here and let you have the last word if you wish.
p.s.
Your Art also appears to give you the ability to talk much about something you claim not to know? I.e. maths and what mathematicians do when they do maths?
p.p.s
You are also confusing Mathematicians with Engineers when you talk about them building things.

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:04 am
by artisticsolution
Arising_uk wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:This is why I think all is art, Arising. It is simply because everything, no matter what can become art to the artist. If it goes unnoticed by some, that doesn't mean it is not art. The next person can come by and be inspired. So it need not matter that everyone think everything is art, the fact that it may become art at anytime through the eyes of an artist is all that matters. ...
Only to you and that's the point about your statement, it makes Art meaningless. I can just as well say its all philosophy, its all economics, its all maths, its all physics, its all chemistry, its all biology, its all politics, etc, etc. but we've been on this endless merry-go-round, so I'll leave it here and let you have the last word if you wish.
No Arising, you can't say that about all those other subjects. Saying art is every "Thing" does not make art meaningless, Art is an all encompassing concept. Every body can be an artist and it would not diminish art, on the contrary, it would make art more alive. It is sort of the same thing as saying, "the universe holds every "Thing". The statement alone does not make every "Thing" the universe holds "meaningless" does it? I think it would only be meaningless if we found out that every "Thing" in the universe was bound by rules and there was nothing we could do to break those rules. Then yes, I would agree that art was meaningless....but then again...all would become meaningless...even human life. Might as well just destroy the world then...because we would be nothing but a rule with no mystery surrounding us.

Art is a concept which is unique unlike maths, physics, chemistry, etc. Art is more like a mystery...and by remaining so will never be meaningless...even if every "thing" was declared art today...by each unique human....we would all still marvel at some other person's idea of art. I am not saying that everyone would be moved by all art...but that is not what art has to be...that is a "rule" in your head you can't seem to escape. No, some art would be cherished by many, some by a few....maybe some by only one...and never spoken. But that would not matter. It still would not be meaningless to that one individual.

Let me put it another way. I don't think many people would think that being a human being is meaningless just because all humans are beings. it does not make a human life less valuable to know that there are billions of us. Art is the same way...it is not valuable because it is rare...it is valuable because it is unique to each of us. It has a value beyond money.

If every single one of us learned the skills to be a fine artist...art would still retain its value. It would never become meaningless because every time a new person is born there would be a new and unique work of art ready to emerge. Art is unlike any other skill that way. Because it has no rules is precisely the reason is cannot become meaningless. Unlike academics like Math and other such studies. Art is valuable unlike anything else.

Take for example what you and chaz talked about recently...about how if there were gold or diamonds found in space and we had a way of bringing them here....they would become meaningless and their value would decrease....well art this could not happen to....because art has no rules...if we teach skills of art....that is just "the skills of art" It is not the Art in itself. Skill is empty with out the human being turning the rules upside down with creativity. This you can't do with math....and if you do...you have created art.


Can you see the difference?

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:26 am
by artisticsolution
Arising_uk wrote: p.s.
Your Art also appears to give you the ability to talk much about something you claim not to know? I.e. maths and what mathematicians do when they do maths?
p.p.s
You are also confusing Mathematicians with Engineers when you talk about them building things.
Damn...missed this! You are not understanding me Arising....I believe I am a great mathematician...but not when it comes to being able to understand the academics of it. Which is why you think I confuse things sometimes. Because I have trouble communicating my thoughts to you.

Let me put it this way, do you think it possible for a person to have the drawing skill I do and not have some sort of mathematical understanding? I don't understand the language of math...i.e. the rules....but I am dead on accurate when it come to the visual. Even when I do everyday math...I can't do it the "normal" way....by working a problem. No, I have to do it visually in my head...without using numbers. I have to use some other type of "thing" like a graph or icon or something...and the answer just comes. It can be instantaneous....like when I am doing art....or it is painstaking long...when I am doing something I am not familiar with...like construction or finances....or even math. I always come up with the correct answer...but it takes to long because I don't know the rules....you see? I have learned the rules in the past...but I only retain the knowledge long enough to take the test...then it's gone. I wish I could find a way of retaining what I learned in Math...I think it would make me a better artist. But so far I have been unable to do this. :cry:

As far as engineers go....that is something that is useful. They are artists who know math. I would say that some artist are more engineers than "emotive" artists like me. For example, chuck close is more of an "engineer" artist than emotive....not that he isn't emotive...he is...it's just that his technique is more structured around serious math...with formulas which have a logical structure in forming his painting or sculptures...than someone like myself who uses instinct in order to "see" what needs to be done in order to execute a painting.

I am not trying to confuse mathematicians and engineers. As, I think engineers as artists unlike mathematicians...who could be artists...but not unless they become imagine-eers. Do you see the difference?

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:41 pm
by chaz wyman
artisticsolution wrote:This is why I think all is art, Arising. It is simply because everything, no matter what can become art to the artist. If it goes unnoticed by some, that doesn't mean it is not art. The next person can come by and be inspired. So it need not matter that everyone think everything is art, the fact that it may become art at anytime through the eyes of an artist is all that matters. ...
This is clearly problematic. Karl Popper once said that a theory that is used to explain everything ends up explaining nothing.
If everything is art then the word art becomes completely meaningless. Unless you are able to say of a thing that is not art, then there is no art at all. Language and meaning depends on difference.
Then you immediately contradict your own statement, by saying "everything CAN become art". Which is actually not true, and refutes your previous statement. A thing is not art until the 'artist' modifies it in some way.
I don't like your statement "If it goes unnoticed by some, that doesn't mean it is not art." which implies that art preexists human notice which simply makes no sense in any way. If there were no humans then there would be no art as the concept would not exist.
Then paradoxically you privilege the artist as the only one whose eyes define art. :roll:

All together it is possibly the most confused 3 lines I have read in a long time.

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:20 pm
by artisticsolution
chaz wyman wrote: Then paradoxically you privilege the artist as the only one whose eyes define art. :roll:
Hmmm...well, you may be right...but only because you seem to want to categorize people as those who are artists.and those who are not. I don't believe this is a correct distinction. I believe that ALL humans are inherently artists. There is an artful manner about us from the time we begin to think. All thinking humans see things in terms of aesthetics. To what degree depends on their intelligence.

You are new to art and you have a lot to learn. But still you are quite capable...and you when you get better...you will understand how the sculpture you have "created" is not anatomically correct as you seem to believe it is. I could show you where you are wrong in your thinking it is....trouble is...it's too difficult to show you without being there to demonstrate what I mean. But since I have been doing art alot longer than you, I am able to see the mistakes you make. Not in your "art" per se...but in your thinking it's "anatomically correct".

So what you are describing as meaningful or not when it comes to art means nothing. You are doing art...and quite well according to yourself. But to me you are a babe in the woods....as you clearly think you are better than you are. The point is....these "degree's" of artistic talent are inherently human. Each of us can learn to view the world in a more "sophisticated" manner. And as we develop and learn our art becomes better.

What I am getting at is...just because a human has not developed his talent for art does not mean he is not an artist or could never be an artist. So in this case, karl popper was wrong...and you are wrong in your thinking that I am talking about just "the artist" as if I define "artist" to a select few. No...to me every single person is an artist. That does not mean that the term artist is meaningless. You are just brainwashed into wanting to believe you are in a "select" class of people who belong to this art club and no one else need apply. Same ol story.....country club mentality only you think yours posh because you don't have servants in your club. The trouble is....you don't think beyond your own needs in order to see how all human have something to say artistically and it is because of people like you and arising, who want to keep them out of the "club" who do a great disservice to humanity and the arts be it cooking, music, sculpting, architecture, fashion design, etc.

I on the other hand think that art could bring the poor out of poverty. Not just because they could produce art to sell...no...because they could think beyond "creating" a "thing" to sell....and might venture into a philosophical type dimension and "create" a better world to live in....the options are limitless with art.

But why do I get the feeling I'm talking to a brick wall.... :roll:

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:02 am
by Arising_uk
I wasn't going to reply to your posts as we've done it to death but;

And yet here you are dolling out advice to chaz when you've said there are no rules in art, so what point your advice? How are you able to point out his 'mistakes' when you've said there are no rules in art?

I think you have a psychological bee-in-your-bonnet about the other subjects for some reason and hence talk nonsense about them.

I think you confuse the creative process with art and ignore that this process is in all the other subjects, including maths.

Its you who is the elitist with respect to art no matter how much you pontificate about its supposed benefits to world peace and harmony.

There are many things stopping the 'poor' becoming those things you say but in the main its because they are uneducated, teaching them to draw and paint won't solve this problem when they pretty much can't read, write nor count. Skills all those professions require.

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:55 am
by artisticsolution
Arising_uk wrote:I wasn't going to reply to your posts as we've done it to death but;

And yet here you are dolling out advice to chaz when you've said there are no rules in art, so what point your advice? How are you able to point out his 'mistakes' when you've said there are no rules in art?
Arising, It is very frustrating having you not understand me. I try to choose my words carefully so that I am understood but unfortunately you have a way of skimming over my posts to the point of misunderstanding what I am trying to say. Rules of art is different to me than skill. Anyone can do art. No rules need apply. Skill just makes you be able to do art in a more sophisticated way. The same applies to language, most everyone can speak...but those with skill usually speak in a more sophisticated manner. And what I mean by sophisticated is where it gets complicated. The more "sophistication" A person has...the better they are at communicating their feelings, thoughts and actions....at least as in a more complex way of thinking. And it shows itself to the trained eye. For example, you can see clearly the mistakes I make in my understanding of academics, philosophy et al...because you have a more skilled "eye" than I do. Do you think that the same could be for me with art? Since I am more skilled in that subject? Do you think I could tell how simple something would be for me to recreate if my skill level surpasses another's? For example, would it not be easy for you to pick up a crayon and draw or write with the skill level of a toddler? Would you have more difficulty trying to draw like chuck close or write in a style of Nietzsche (or whoever you think is a great writer)? There are certain level of art styles...some more complicated that other...some seem miraculous....genius. Don't you think I can see the difference at my skill level? I would not think someone more skilled than me would be "dolling out advice" if they critiqued my work. I remember somewhere when you said that critique is part of philosophy. Why can't that be part of art as well?

It offends me that you say I am "dolling out advice to Chaz"...I would never tell you that you were "dolling" out advice to me...as I think you are more educated in philosophy and in teaching...so to me...it is a given that you would have more skill in those areas than I. But here, you act as if I should hide my skill from Chaz...as if I am trying to hurt is feelings or something. I wish you would not be so sensitive. I am simply trying to explain what I see. Or perhaps you think because Chaz is "intelligent" in your eyes...he is intelligent in all areas over me...and I should take a back seat to him? But then that doesn't sound like you, from what I know. So I will try not to take offense...besides...I am not the "offended" type anyway...lol. :)

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:10 am
by artisticsolution
Arising_uk wrote: There are many things stopping the 'poor' becoming those things you say but in the main its because they are uneducated, teaching them to draw and paint won't solve this problem when they pretty much can't read, write nor count. Skills all those professions require.
This is your prejudice Arising. You may not be able see it though.

How likely is it that all will be able to be educated the way we (you and I) would like? You are living in a dream world if you think it can ever be that way...

What I am saying is that your prejudice of desiring this social "class" warfare is limiting the very people you wish to help by making others (including yourself) think they are better because they know how to read, write, do math, etc. You do not give the uneducated any credit for knowing more than you in certain areas. You simply want to take pity on them. It even shows when you "scold" me for "dolling out advice" as if I am not capable of any intelligence3 or talent since I am not capable as Chaz or you in the areas you think are important.

Have you ever stopped to consider uneducated people do not need or want your pity? Did you ever stop to think all they care about is what they do? Perhaps they don't want to be apart of your social class. Perhaps they are above you in other ways? But you have taken the stance that since you value education...EVERYONE should value education.

Tell me arising....how come is it...that there are dropouts in the education system? It can't be because they ALL have to stop going to school because of hardship. My sis dropped out of school and she was not poor. I almost dropped out of school but didn't...it wasn't because I was destitute....it was because I did not value an education. How many others could be like us?

When I was young I wanted to live and have fun...I did not want to "waste" the hours going to school....that is until I found out it's value. And it is precisely because I was taught things that I knew would not help me at all in life. Mainstream society wants a one size fits all education system, but some subjects are a waste of time for most people. What are the chances that the authority of an education "system" means that most people will follow that protocol and blindly believe that a prescribed education of one size fits all is best...and those who do not fit are less than? I would say the chances are good...since it is human behavior to for most of us to believe and follow authority, right or wrong.

People are all different. They have different goals to pursue...to try to force education on someone, that will probably have no purpose in their lives...is wrong. Yes...reading, writing and basic math have a purpose in life...but after that I feel the student should be able to pursue their interests. I think you would see less drop outs ad I think you would begin to see a society that valued a broader view of academics....perhaps understanding that there is value in art as a way to broaden our understanding of the world...and if it helped humanity...then that would be an extra bonus.


(Edited to be more precise as I was in a rush to get dinner on the table when writing my first draft.)

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:14 am
by ..nameless..
artisticsolution wrote:But you have taken the stance that since you value education...EVERYONE should value education.
"The only way that we shall ever recapture the sort of knowledge Lao-Tsu referred to in his dictum, "Those who know, do not speak", is by subordinating the question "how shall we know?" to the more existentially vital question, "How shall we live?"
To ask this question is to insist that the primary purpose of human existence is not to devise ways of piling up ever greater heaps of knowledge, but to discover ways to 'live', from day to day, that integrate the whole of our nature by way of yielding nobility of conduct, honest fellowship, and joy. And to achieve these ends, a man need perhaps know very little in the conventional, intellectual sense of the word. But, what he does know, and may only be able to express by eloquent silence, by the grace of his most commonplace daily gestures, will approach more closely to whatever 'reality' is, than the more dogged and disciplined intellectual behavior.""

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:25 am
by Arising_uk
artisticsolution wrote:Arising, It is very frustrating having you not understand me. I try to choose my words carefully so that I am understood but unfortunately you have a way of skimming over my posts to the point of misunderstanding what I am trying to say. Rules of art is different to me than skill. Anyone can do art. No rules need apply. Skill just makes you be able to do art in a more sophisticated way. The same applies to language, most everyone can speak...but those with skill usually speak in a more sophisticated manner. And what I mean by sophisticated is where it gets complicated. The more "sophistication" A person has...the better they are at communicating their feelings, thoughts and actions....at least as in a more complex way of thinking. And it shows itself to the trained eye. For example, you can see clearly the mistakes I make in my understanding of academics, philosophy et al...because you have a more skilled "eye" than I do. Do you think that the same could be for me with art? Since I am more skilled in that subject? Do you think I could tell how simple something would be for me to recreate if my skill level surpasses another's? For example, would it not be easy for you to pick up a crayon and draw or write with the skill level of a toddler? Would you have more difficulty trying to draw like chuck close or write in a style of Nietzsche (or whoever you think is a great writer)? There are certain level of art styles...some more complicated that other...some seem miraculous....genius. Don't you think I can see the difference at my skill level? I would not think someone more skilled than me would be "dolling out advice" if they critiqued my work. I remember somewhere when you said that critique is part of philosophy. Why can't that be part of art as well?

It offends me that you say I am "dolling out advice to Chaz"...I would never tell you that you were "dolling" out advice to me...as I think you are more educated in philosophy and in teaching...so to me...it is a given that you would have more skill in those areas than I. But here, you act as if I should hide my skill from Chaz...as if I am trying to hurt is feelings or something. I wish you would not be so sensitive. I am simply trying to explain what I see. Or perhaps you think because Chaz is "intelligent" in your eyes...he is intelligent in all areas over me...and I should take a back seat to him? But then that doesn't sound like you, from what I know. So I will try not to take offense...besides...I am not the "offended" type anyway...lol. :)
Not at all AS,
I understand the positive intent behind your advice to chaz and appreciate that is was well intentioned, personally I think he'll appreciate the advice but maybe not the manner as it sounded fairly condescending in parts but I'll leave that to chaz to decide.

My issue was that in our epic conversation you appeared to clearly say that you thought there was no were no rules to art and that it was the artists aesthetic sense that was all when it came to art, as such there was no 'better' art in any sense nor any possible judgement about others art with respect to it being truer or not to its subject. I was just puzzled that you can then quote anatomical rules and techniques to 'improve' chazs art? I'm also puzzled that you think critique can be part of art given what you've said before, as much of what was said before was about you disagreeing that art can be critiqued, as to have this you need some kind of agreed categories?

It has nothing to do with 'academics' that I say you misrepresented what mathematicians and engineers do, just experience of mathematicians and engineers.

I hope you'll find I give very little advice from the perspective of how one should write ones thoughts upon a philosophy forum, although I can think of one major exception.

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:40 am
by chaz wyman
artisticsolution wrote:
chaz wyman wrote: Then paradoxically you privilege the artist as the only one whose eyes define art. :roll:
Hmmm...well, you may be right...but only because you seem to want to categorize people as those who are artists.

No I don't! I said anyone can do it.


and those who are not. I don't believe this is a correct distinction. I believe that ALL humans are inherently artists.
No you do not. You said that it is only the "ARTIST" who knew what was art. If you meant everyone, then you render that sentence meaningless.

There is an artful manner about us from the time we begin to think. All thinking humans see things in terms of aesthetics. To what degree depends on their intelligence.

That is unvbelievably high minded of you, and completely wrong!

You are new to art and you have a lot to learn.

Not at all. I started to do art 48 years ago. You are a bucket load of contradictions.

But still you are quite capable...and you when you get better...you will understand how the sculpture you have "created" is not anatomically correct as you seem to believe it is

You are such an arrogant prig aren't you?

. I could show you where you are wrong in your thinking it is....trouble is...it's too difficult to show you without being there to demonstrate what I mean. But since I have been doing art alot longer than you, I am able to see the mistakes you make. Not in your "art" per se...but in your thinking it's "anatomically correct".

I've studied anatomy so I am way ahead of you.

So what you are describing as meaningful or not when it comes to art means nothAnatoing. You are doing art...and quite well according to yourself. But to me you are a babe in the woods....as you clearly think you are better than you are. The point is....these "degree's" of artistic talent are inherently human. Each of us can learn to view the world in a more "sophisticated" manner. And as we develop and learn our art becomes better.

I'd rather be thought of as a naive artist than a person that cannot string a simple sequence of thoughts together with making contradictions at every step; showing themselves to be a bird-brain.

What I am getting at is...just because a human has not developed his talent for art does not mean he is not an artist or could never be an artist.

Which is a contradiction to what you said above.

So in this case, karl popper was wrong...and you are wrong in your thinking that I am talking about just "the artist" as if I define "artist" to a select few.

If you began to understand 10% of what Popper was on about, I'd think you might be worth listening to.
In what way do you think that Popper was wrong?

No...to me every single person is an artist. That does not mean that the term artist is meaningless. You are just brainwashed into wanting to believe you are in a "select" class of people who belong to this art club and no one else need apply.

I do not believe that in any sense, never have. Quite the contrary. Please pay attention.
You are the one who said only artists are the ones capable of seeing what is and what is not art. And, worse still you are the one claiming that there is a relationship between art and intelligence.
I'm beginning to think you are a bit crazy. If there is a relationship to art and intelligence then, you being an artist, you have demonstrated an inverse relationship between being an artist and having intelligence.

Same ol story.....country club mentality only you think yours posh because you don't have servants in your club.
Wow - you are clinically insane. Now I know.

The trouble is....you don't think beyond your own needs in order to see how all human have something to say artistically and it is because of people like you and arising, who want to keep them out of the "club" who do a great disservice to humanity and the arts be it cooking, music, sculpting, architecture, fashion design, etc.

You are just making this shit up as you go along. You don't know me. If you did you know you are insulting me. As you are making idiotic claims that you can possibly know about I will forgive you.


I on the other hand think that art could bring the poor out of poverty.

Oh terribly terribly high minded of you!! Have you told that to your friends at your Country Club? I bet they are just so excited about helping all those poor people, aren't they? Are you going to have a charity Gymkhana, and a show of poor people's efforts at paining pictures? Will you have a charity ball and gather money to provide the poor people with paint and things to stick together. How spiffing of you!


Not just because they could produce art to sell...no...because they could think beyond "creating" a "thing" to sell....and might venture into a philosophical type dimension and "create" a better world to live in....the options are limitless with art.
Oh no- heaven forbid that they might actually be able to feed their families!! We can't have them making money can we!! Disgraceful. We can't sully art in this filthy way!!!!

I've seen 'artists' in Laos and Cambodia who haven't got the time to make 'art' for art's sake. They are real craftswomen who make beautiful objects for pricks like you to buy on holiday. They know their materials and make 'art' to survive.



But why do I get the feeling I'm talking to a brick wall.... :roll:

Because you are talking to a mirror. None of this has any relevance to me, because like the time you called me a "all-men-are-bastards" bastard, you demonstrated that you haven't got a fucking clue who or what I am.



Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:43 am
by chaz wyman
artisticsolution wrote:
Arising_uk wrote:I wasn't going to reply to your posts as we've done it to death but;

And yet here you are dolling out advice to chaz when you've said there are no rules in art, so what point your advice? How are you able to point out his 'mistakes' when you've said there are no rules in art?
Arising, It is very frustrating having you not understand me.


I think Arising and I understand you all too well.


I try to choose my words carefully so that I am understood but unfortunately you have a way of skimming over my posts to the point of misunderstanding what I am trying to say. Rules of art is different to me than skill. Anyone can do art. No rules need apply. Skill just makes you be able to do art in a more sophisticated way. The same applies to language, most everyone can speak...but those with skill usually speak in a more sophisticated manner. And what I mean by sophisticated is where it gets complicated. The more "sophistication" A person has...the better they are at communicating their feelings, thoughts and actions....at least as in a more complex way of thinking. And it shows itself to the trained eye. For example, you can see clearly the mistakes I make in my understanding of academics, philosophy et al...because you have a more skilled "eye" than I do. Do you think that the same could be for me with art? Since I am more skilled in that subject? Do you think I could tell how simple something would be for me to recreate if my skill level surpasses another's? For example, would it not be easy for you to pick up a crayon and draw or write with the skill level of a toddler? Would you have more difficulty trying to draw like chuck close or write in a style of Nietzsche (or whoever you think is a great writer)? There are certain level of art styles...some more complicated that other...some seem miraculous....genius. Don't you think I can see the difference at my skill level? I would not think someone more skilled than me would be "dolling out advice" if they critiqued my work. I remember somewhere when you said that critique is part of philosophy. Why can't that be part of art as well?

It offends me that you say I am "dolling out advice to Chaz"...I would never tell you that you were "dolling" out advice to me...as I think you are more educated in philosophy and in teaching...so to me...it is a given that you would have more skill in those areas than I. But here, you act as if I should hide my skill from Chaz...as if I am trying to hurt is feelings or something. I wish you would not be so sensitive. I am simply trying to explain what I see.

I see, your Majesty. I'll doff my cap and be orf!

Or perhaps you think because Chaz is "intelligent" in your eyes...he is intelligent in all areas over me...and I should take a back seat to him? But then that doesn't sound like you, from what I know. So I will try not to take offense...besides...I am not the "offended" type anyway...lol. :)

Re: An Artist's Dilemma

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:54 am
by Arising_uk
artisticsolution wrote:This is your prejudice Arising. You may not be able see it though.

How likely is it that all will be able to be educated the way we (you and I) would like? You are living in a dream world if you think it can ever be that way...

What I am saying is that your prejudice of desiring this social "class" warfare is limiting the very people you wish to help by making others (including yourself) think they are better because they know how to read, write, do math, etc. You do not give the uneducated any credit for knowing more than you in certain areas. You simply want to take pity on them. It even shows when you "scold" me for "dolling out advice" as if I am not capable of any intelligence3 or talent since I am not capable as Chaz or you in the areas you think are important.

Have you ever stopped to consider uneducated people do not need or want your pity? Did you ever stop to think all they care about is what they do? Perhaps they don't want to be apart of your social class. Perhaps they are above you in other ways? But you have taken the stance that since you value education...EVERYONE should value education.

Tell me arising....how come is it...that there are dropouts in the education system? It can't be because they ALL have to stop going to school because of hardship. My sis dropped out of school and she was not poor. I almost dropped out of school but didn't...it wasn't because I was destitute....it was because I did not value an education. How many others could be like us?

When I was young I wanted to live and have fun...I did not want to "waste" the hours going to school....that is until I found out it's value. And it is precisely because I was taught things that I knew would not help me at all in life. Mainstream society wants a one size fits all education system, but some subjects are a waste of time for most people. What are the chances that the authority of an education "system" means that most people will follow that protocol and blindly believe that a prescribed education of one size fits all is best...and those who do not fit are less than? I would say the chances are good...since it is human behavior to for most of us to believe and follow authority, right or wrong.

People are all different. They have different goals to pursue...to try to force education on someone, that will probably have no purpose in their lives...is wrong. Yes...reading, writing and basic math have a purpose in life...but after that I feel the student should be able to pursue their interests. I think you would see less drop outs ad I think you would begin to see a society that valued a broader view of academics....perhaps understanding that there is value in art as a way to broaden our understanding of the world...and if it helped humanity...then that would be an extra bonus.
I'm not sure what your education system is like but since we have been aping it for the past couple of decades I expect it to be failing many of our working class kids in much the same way as ours. You'll get no argument from me that a higher education is for not for all and it is exactly the destruction of the humanities and arts and a concentration upon economic value that is partly at fault, that and a rigid curriculum and a one-size fits all model. But if you take a look at our prisons you'll find that the bulk are illiterate and innumerate and I think this no weak correlation. Its not pity that drives me but fear of a society of youth that under-values education, the kids I've taught all think that they are artists of one form or another and yet cannot achieve what they wish because they do not have the basic skills needed in a modern society. I have no doubt we should be teaching them to value an education and the belief that they can achieve at least a basic level of understanding in all the subjects. On the whole schooling is being used as a baby-sitting service so that the parents can work, its also, with its concentration upon academic league tables to achieve funding, currently only benefiting the children of the middle-classes with the working-class just being managed until they can be foisted upon society with little or no education or skills. I think its also, with this academy status, reverting to an older model where those schools in the poorer areas can drop any attempt to provide an academic education to the poor with the ethos that I think you display, i.e. what need do they have for it?

For myself, I left school with no qualifications and obtained what I have through the adult education system but was assisted at the time by a social system that allowed me that second chance. Now-a-days the system is pretty much pricing the kids out of this opportunity.