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Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 4:44 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2026 9:41 pm
And all of this aside, you're advertising some sort of white male privilege. If all the black people and women who complained in the past that they didn't see representations of themselves on screen in anything but supporting roles that reinforce stereotypes were unwarranted, then your complaints here must also be unwarranted. If your complaints are not unwarranted... well you see where this leads us, right?
Notice your primary “interpretive lens”. Your sensibilities have been tuned to snoop out even minor traces of the dread “white privilege”. The majority of the filmic artifacts that expose White injustice to Blacks are American productions. But the larger intolerance for the category of “White” and the beginnings of a type of channeled contempt and self-loathing would likely be harder for you to trace. So, this is another facet of the progressive movement that resulted in the recent over-the-top “wokeness”.
It is interesting to note a type of counterpoint and counter-narrative developing. It is revisionist of course, but not in an exclusively negative sense. Take Matt Walsh’s recent
exposition on the *Real History* of American slavery.
It is revisionist history, not untruthful, yet it does have a social and narrative function with that developing movement said to oppose
wokeness. What it says is: Stories have been told with the function of undermining — what exactly? The nation? Its civic myths? Its ‘true history’? These Stories which are forcefully critical, undermine — what? White identity? Whiteness as a category? Pride in culture?
The
Stories are critical narratives that are not untruthful, but they are exaggerations, and they have ‘functions’ that are always more complex than surface analysis indicates.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:04 pm
by FlashDangerpants
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 4:44 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2026 9:41 pm
And all of this aside, you're advertising some sort of white male privilege. If all the black people and women who complained in the past that they didn't see representations of themselves on screen in anything but supporting roles that reinforce stereotypes were unwarranted, then your complaints here must also be unwarranted. If your complaints are not unwarranted... well you see where this leads us, right?
Notice your primary “interpretive lens”. ....
Blah blah blah, nothing to do with my point. Irrelevant. You are boring.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:10 pm
by FlashDangerpants
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 2:51 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2026 9:41 pm
That seems excessive. You seem to be getting oversensitive and emotional in response to no actual harm at all. This plea for masculinity shouldn't really go that way. If somebody made Lois Lane a character with something to do other that scream and wait for Superman to rescue her that isn't really such a terrible loss for you is it? (I don't watch superhero movies, I have no idea what Lois Lane did in the last one, I'm just guessing, I couldn't care any less.)
THAT actually provides a good example of how values change over time. Superman/Lois have been around long enough for changes in cultural expectations alter the story lines. Thus when Rosie was a riveter, Lois is strong, competent, active, just needing rescue because she has terribly bad luck. She's doing everything right (as investigating journalist) but something beyond her control means she needs rescue.
I honestly would assume any long enough running franchise will do the same. James Bond probably lets women do something interesting from time to time these days. Tom and Jerry had to stop having that black lady jump on the stool and shout "Oh Lawdy a Mouse!". Captain America, Daffy Duck and Superman all punched Hitler back in the day - but here we have Hitler fan Jacobi wanting to put them all back the way they were just because he liked it when Women couldn't vote and black people had to leave town before sunset.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:28 pm
by Iwannaplato
One could see films without being sold messages. Yes, yes, all films have implicit norms, but I think one can feel when a film is making a political point or trying to be good, rather than is obsessed with the story, characters, etc.
It's not that we have to choose between films with team A's propaganda and films with team B's propaganda. One could hate films with obvious (and often embarrassingly handled) political moral messages banged into our heads even when one shares those values. The woke have more power these days in terms of banging the messages in films. It's not that it was better when the other side has it.
Yes, films that are not hamfistedly sending messages also have values, but when the art is the thing, rather than the message, it's more likely to be respected by members of both teams (who think they are the only teams). It's also treating the public not as the objects of propaganda, but as appreciators of art/entertainment.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:49 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:28 pm
One could see films without being sold messages.
I think you mean that one would not recognize the message? or be interested in it?
It seems to me (standing before my Criterion Collection film shelf) that well over half, even 80%, of films in that collection anyway are “message” films. Most film makers choose stories that have political content or socially-relevant content.
As for
purely aesthetic films
The Scent of Green Papaya comes to mind.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:52 pm
by phyllo
but here we have Hitler fan Jacobi wanting to put them all back the way they were just because he liked it when Women couldn't vote and black people had to leave town before sunset.
Interesting. You first post referred to bringing back Fu Manchu and White Minstrels.
It's odd that you think this is the goal and that this is what you are afraid of.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:04 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
No, Flash knows things about poor Alexis Jacobi that even Alexis Jacobi knows not about himself!
Back to aesthetic films: If anyone figures out what
The Color of Pomegranates is ‘ultimately’ about, PM me. It is astounding though.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:07 pm
by Iwannaplato
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:49 pm
I think you mean that one would not recognize the message? or be interested in it?
Not much while watching, while mulling later one certainly might. And one might be interested in it. But the film isn't a vehicle for it.
It seems to me (standing before my Criterion Collection film shelf) that well over half, even 80%, of films in that collection anyway are “message” films. Most film makers choose stories that have political content or socially-relevant content.
Does the distinction I am raising seem familiar to you? Do you see some films at hitting you over the head with the message and others not doing that? Or do they all seem the same. I
purely aesthetic might lead one to think of a small group of films, depending on what aspects of aesthetics are involved.
It could be argued that that film is feminist, but in a subtle rather than overt, didactic way. I'm not saying it was. My point is that I feel some directors' fascination, for example, for some of the characters. One may find afterwards that there are political messages in the film, implicit and subtle, but the drive was not towards those messages. I feel respected to reach my own conclusions not beaten over the head with anyone's values.
One could argue that nearly everything Tarkovsky did was anti-Soviet. But you aren't sitting there, at least in the States, thinking what a critique of sovietism.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:25 pm
by FlashDangerpants
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:52 pm
but here we have Hitler fan Jacobi wanting to put them all back the way they were just because he liked it when Women couldn't vote and black people had to leave town before sunset.
Interesting. You first post referred to bringing back Fu Manchu and White Minstrels.
It's odd that you think this is the goal and that this is what you are afraid of.
Swing and a miss there buddy. Old timey Hollywood, the thing that went out of fashion, was big on clumsy racial and sexist stereotypes, and had censorious rules to enforce "moral decency" by presenting homosexuals as villains or victims only, if at all.
Quite separately from that, there is Jacobi, who is not you and my comments directed at him are about him not you. Jacobi is quite unable to say Hitler was evil, but totally able to say I am. Why you want to mix yourself up in that I cannot say, but I recommend not doing so.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:57 pm
by MikeNovack
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:07 pm
It seems to me (standing before my Criterion Collection film shelf) that well over half, even 80%, of films in that collection anyway are “message” films. Most film makers choose stories that have political content or socially-relevant content. Does the distinction I am raising seem familiar to you? Do you see some films at hitting you over the head with the message and others not doing that? Or do they all seem the same.
OK, most films have content. Does not have to be political content or a current socially relevant content. Lot's of other possibilities, but we'd have folks complaining about some of those too. Great films tend to have important content.
BUT -- if you leave the film with the experience you have been hit over the head with propaganda that represents failure (if the intent of the filmmaker was to deliver a MESSAGE). I am of course referring to viewing the film "cold" as the experience is intended . If you come into viewing the film knowing in advance trying to deliver a message and what message is, your anticipation will cause even appropriate levels of subtlety to come across as heavy handed. Also in this regard, comedy is different than drama. Comedy can get away with what would be overly heavy handed in drama if clearly in the interest of the laugh.
<< damn -- I can't seem to find the extraneous "quote" >>
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 7:35 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:07 pm
Does the distinction I am raising seem familiar to you? Do you see some films at hitting you over the head with the message and others not doing that?
I think most filmmakers are very aware of their “authorial position” and cannot almost avoid creations with various layers of messaging. And done are extremely loaded. I am thinking of
The Manchurian Candidate for example. Have you seen it?
The distinction exists certainly: some films are more “simple” accounts of personal relationships, but most of the “great” films are films with many levels of commentary.
I am not sure if “hitting over the head” means a) too obvious in intent and unsubtle, or 2) deliberately infused.
I think most (or many) American films are statement films. Like
Ship of Fools (postwar, by a Jewish director). (Stanley Kramer). And then think of
Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 7:47 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:25 pm
Jacobi is quite unable to say Hitler was evil, but totally able to say I am. Why you want to mix yourself up in that I cannot say, but I recommend not doing so.
Vat are you about? Here ist mein
declaration!
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 8:01 pm
by phyllo
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:25 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:52 pm
but here we have Hitler fan Jacobi wanting to put them all back the way they were just because he liked it when Women couldn't vote and black people had to leave town before sunset.
Interesting. You first post referred to bringing back Fu Manchu and White Minstrels.
It's odd that you think this is the goal and that this is what you are afraid of.
Swing and a miss there buddy. Old timey Hollywood, the thing that went out of fashion, was big on clumsy racial and sexist stereotypes, and had censorious rules to enforce "moral decency" by presenting homosexuals as villains or victims only, if at all.
Quite separately from that, there is Jacobi, who is not you and my comments directed at him are about him not you. Jacobi is quite unable to say Hitler was evil, but totally able to say I am. Why you want to mix yourself up in that I cannot say, but I recommend not doing so.
I don't know why you feel the need to immediately smear people with bigotry as soon as they say something you don't agree with.
And I also don't understand why need to smear AJ. He said nothing about Hitler in this thread, so why bring up Hitler?
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 8:23 pm
by Iwannaplato
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 7:35 pm
I think most filmmakers are very aware of their “authorial position” and cannot almost avoid creations with various layers of messaging. And done are extremely loaded. I am thinking of
The Manchurian Candidate for example. Have you seen it?
I've even seen both versions. You know the book was partly critical of the anti-communist excesses, though they left that out of the film. And yes, they put in messages and they may not even be aware of messages. They may just assume things and not even realize they are making value choices.
I am not sure if “hitting over the head” means a) too obvious in intent and unsubtle, or 2) deliberately infused.
I think 2 too often leads to a. I was thinking of the product so a - but when you can feel them thinking about the message, I dislike it.
I think most (or many) American films are statement films. Like
Ship of Fools (postwar, by a Jewish director). (Stanley Kramer). And then think of
Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner.
The latter I've seen. I like the actors a lot so I could enjoy them, but sure, message film and it was criticized as too much that, even by those politically aligned with the message, back at the time.
Re: The Culture Wars
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2026 8:33 pm
by FlashDangerpants
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 8:01 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 6:25 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 5:52 pm
Interesting. You first post referred to bringing back Fu Manchu and White Minstrels.
It's odd that you think this is the goal and that this is what you are afraid of.
Swing and a miss there buddy. Old timey Hollywood, the thing that went out of fashion, was big on clumsy racial and sexist stereotypes, and had censorious rules to enforce "moral decency" by presenting homosexuals as villains or victims only, if at all.
Quite separately from that, there is Jacobi, who is not you and my comments directed at him are about him not you. Jacobi is quite unable to say Hitler was evil, but totally able to say I am. Why you want to mix yourself up in that I cannot say, but I recommend not doing so.
I don't know why you feel the need to immediately smear people with bigotry as soon as they say something you don't agree with.
I don't undertand why somebody who seems to be so interested in masculinity issues is so paper thin-skinned as you are. Man up. I have repeatedly pointed out defintie flaws in old Hollywood that any resonable person would agree needed addressing. So just agree that point and quit flouncing around being dramatic about it.
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2026 8:01 pm
And I also don't understand why need to smear AJ. He said nothing about Hitler in this thread, so why bring up Hitler?
Scroll up the page. When Jacobi writes
"Its ‘true history’? These Stories which are forcefully critical, undermine — what? White identity? Whiteness as a category? Pride in culture?"
what do you think he's on about there? You know perfectly well what he's like, you've seen him action countless times, you know what his ulterior motive is for all this. It's not a smear.