The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 11:43 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 11:40 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 11:32 am ...Christianity or IC's version ... what if it is true?

Do you mean "what if ICs version is true"? If so, then I can't think of anything more degrading to human beings that forfeiting all of our personal instincts and vitality to become drones of an invisible God/master.

It seems like it bothers you. Like you hate it, but at the same time it nags at you. If this personal turn in the discussion is wrong for you, I'll just drop it. It just seemed like you hear what he has to say about God and the ideas make you angry. You don't like it. It doesn't seem fair to you or loving. But maybe at the same time there is fear it might be true. Like you're sort of oscillating between those reactions.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 11:11 am To me, the idea that Christ is uniquely God incarnate and the rest of us are just his sheep is a mockery of how I think of Christ.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe God is the benevolent supreme dictator of the universe and the rest of us are just blind followers who wouldn't know up from down without God's guiding help.

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 12:02 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 11:11 am To me, the idea that Christ is uniquely God incarnate and the rest of us are just his sheep is a mockery of how I think of Christ.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe God is the benevolent supreme dictator of the universe and the rest of us are just blind followers who wouldn't know up from down without God's guiding help.

When the sheep are in the fields, some will wander off and get lost. The shepherd then leaves the flock and goes to look for them and bring them back.

That is what Jesus was doing, he was bringing back the lost, those separated from God.

Jesus is the shepherd and the flock of sheep is the community of the faithful.

You don't need to read some sort of power structure into it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2026 10:55 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2026 9:30 pm One can think of cases where the emotion does not fit the situation. That's when the concept of "reasonable" comes into it.

Right. And does it make any rational sense to whine about things that were inevitable anyway, random happenstances, things that follow from mere material facts, and things that are for ever and always, and cannot be changed?

Can you complain about gravity? Will you object to entropy? Who can make sense of somebody who shouts at stars and cries at comets? These things are what they are, and they cannot be changed, so far as secularism knows. So what sense can it make of a man who is so silly as to complain about these indifferent inevitabilities...one cannot ask them to care; they're not even able to care.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 12:15 pm Supposing that everyone around you is going to Hell only because they don't worship your version of God is not an innocent or harmless belief.

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 12:25 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 12:15 pm Supposing that everyone around you is going to Hell only because they don't worship your version of God is not an innocent or harmless belief.

You have no control over what others believe.

If you disagree with a belief, you can try to convince the believer to adopt another belief. You can speak and act to prevent the belief from spreading.

But there is no guarantee that you will succeed.

If God is demanding worship or belief at the threat of eternal Hell, then there's a power structure. It's the perfect definition of a cult. A cult that has grown into the mainstream.

Maybe hope there's never a repeat of the Spanish Inquisition?

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 12:40 pm

Maybe hope there's never a repeat of the Spanish Inquisition?

The Inquisition was an improvement over what was happening.

But that's another story.

AI Overview
The Inquisition, particularly the medieval tribunal, was intended to "save souls" by providing a legal process for heretics to repent and return to the Catholic Church, avoiding execution by secular authorities. It aimed to offer opportunities for confession and rehabilitation rather than immediate punishment.

Key Aspects of the Inquisition's "Saving" Role:

Preventing Mob Violence: The church-led inquisition often provided a more orderly, legal process than local secular leaders or angry mobs, which were known for killing suspects, such as during the 1391 anti-Jewish riots.

Focus on Reconciliation: The goal was to bring "stray sheep" back into the church. Most people accused were acquitted or received suspended sentences rather than execution.

"Edict of Grace": A 30–40-day window allowed individuals to confess, repent, and receive lighter punishments (such as spiritual penance) rather than having to face harsher trials.

Skepticism of Witchcraft: The Inquisition was often skeptical of witch hunts that were rampant in secular courts and would sometimes dismiss charges against accused people.

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 12:56 pm

AI Overview
The Inquisition, particularly the medieval tribunal, was intended to "save souls" by providing a legal process for heretics to repent and return to the Catholic Church, avoiding execution by secular authorities. It aimed to offer opportunities for confession and rehabilitation rather than immediate punishment.

Key Aspects of the Inquisition's "Saving" Role:

Preventing Mob Violence: The church-led inquisition often provided a more orderly, legal process than local secular leaders or angry mobs, which were known for killing suspects, such as during the 1391 anti-Jewish riots.

Focus on Reconciliation: The goal was to bring "stray sheep" back into the church. Most people accused were acquitted or received suspended sentences rather than execution.

"Edict of Grace": A 30–40-day window allowed individuals to confess, repent, and receive lighter punishments (such as spiritual penance) rather than having to face harsher trials.

Skepticism of Witchcraft: The Inquisition was often skeptical of witch hunts that were rampant in secular courts and would sometimes dismiss charges against accused people.

Oh well. I guess I should count myself lucky that mobs of Christians don't execute me for "straying". Could always be worse, right?

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2026 1:01 pm

Oh well. I guess I should count myself lucky that mobs of Christians don't execute me for "straying". Could always be worse, right?

Don't go to Pakistan.

Muslims in eastern Pakistan went on a rampage Wednesday over allegations that a Christian man had desecrated the Quran, demolishing the man’s house, burning churches and damaging several other homes, police and local Christians said. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

The attacks in Jaranwala, in the district of Faisalabad in Punjab province, erupted after some Muslims living in the area claimed they had seen a local Christian, Raja Amir, and his friend tearing out pages from a Quran, throwing them on the ground and writing insulting remarks on other pages.

Police chief Rizwan Khan said this had angered the local Muslims. A mob gathered and began attacking multiple churches and several Christian homes, burning furniture and other household items. Some members of the Christian community fled their homes to escape the mob.

Police eventually intervened, firing into the air and wielding batons before dispersing the attackers with the help of Muslim clerics and elders. Authorities also said they have started launching raids in an effort to find all the perpetrators. Dozens of rioters were arrested.

Police chief Bilal Mehmood told reporters they were also looking for Amir, who went into hiding to escape the mob, and would detain him to determine whether he had desecrated the Quran.

Videos and photos posted on social media show an angry mob descending upon a church, throwing pieces of bricks and burning it. In another video, two other churches are attacked, their windows broken as attackers throw furniture out and set it on fire.

Several policemen are seen in the videos watching the situation without intervening to stop the vandalism.

In yet another video, a man is seen climbing to the roof of the church and removing the steel cross after repeatedly hitting it with a hammer as the crowd down on the road cheered him on.

Khalid Mukhtar, a local priest, said most of the Christians living in the area had fled to safer places. “Even my house was burned,” he added.

Mukhtar said there are 17 churches in Jaranwala and he believes most of them were attacked. The authorities did not immediately confirm that figure.

Khan said additional police forces were later deployed in Jaranwala and an investigation was underway. He said all involved in the attack would be prosecuted. “Our first priority was to save the lives of all of the Christians,” he said.

Later in the evening, troops started arriving in Jaranwala to help the police. Angry Muslims were urged to go back to their homes, allegedly with promises that the man who desecrated the Quran would soon be arrested.

A delegation of Muslim clerics also arrived in Jaranwala from the city of Lahore to express solidarity with the Christians.

Blasphemy accusations are common in Pakistan. Under the country’s blasphemy laws, anyone found guilty of insulting Islam or Islamic religious figures can be sentenced to death. While authorities have yet to carry out a death sentence for blasphemy, often just the accusation can cause riots and incite mobs to violence, lynching and killings.

In one of the worst attacks on Christians, a mob in 2009 burned an estimated 60 homes and killed six Christians in the district of Gojra in Punjab, after accusing them of insulting Islam.

Wednesday’s attack drew nationwide condemnation from top leaders and major political parties. Caretaker Prime Minister Anwaar-ul-Haq Kakar said he was “gutted” by the images coming out of Faisalabad.

“Stern action would be taken against those who violate law and target minorities. All law enforcement has been asked to apprehend culprits & bring them to justice,” he wrote on the social media platform X, formerly known as Twitter.



A senior Christian leader, Bishop Azad Marshall, appealed for help on social media and said he was “deeply pained and distressed.”

“We cry out for justice and action from law enforcement and those who dispense justice and the safety of all citizens to intervene immediately and assure us that our lives are valuable in our own homeland that has just celebrated independence and freedom,” he posted on X.

Former Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif also condemned the rampage. “There is no place for violence in any religion.”

In the southern port city of Karachi, the capital of southern Sindh province, dozens of Christians rallied to denounce the attacks in Jaranwala.

Domestic and international human rights groups say blasphemy allegations have often been used to intimidate religious minorities in Pakistan and settle personal scores.

In December 2021, a Muslim mob descended on a sports equipment factory in Pakistan’s Sialkot district, killing a Sri Lankan man and burning his body publicly over allegations of blasphemy.