Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:39 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am He's convinced that the shroud is the burial cloth of Christ and that something beyond any ability of humans at the time created the image.
I haven't questioned him to whether he believes in the resurrection etc..

To my point (and I'd bet you a beer on this) the artifact changes nothing in terms of the miraculousness claims. He still self-identifies as an atheist.

Jesus's burrial cloth? Cool. And then?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am Really? It is THE biggest question of our time in relation to God. That this entity claims to exist and refuses to provide evidence to all of its existence and instead requires FAITH. The REASON for that is of great importance imo.

Don't care. Religion is to be understood through the traditions and practices of its followers. You believe when you adopt those traditions/practices.

This God-stuff is secondary.

Instead of taking sides in a pointless culture war, I much prefer to piss everybody off anyway. I am a God-loving atheist. Jesus is my witness.

WHY do you much prefer to piss EVERY body off?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:39 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am He's convinced that the shroud is the burial cloth of Christ and that something beyond any ability of humans at the time created the image.
I haven't questioned him to whether he believes in the resurrection etc..

To my point (and I'd bet you a beer on this) the artifact changes nothing in terms of the miraculousness claims. He still self-identifies as an atheist.

I did ask him whether he is now a Christian, his reply is that he's open to the idea. I did advise him to read Matthew.

Personally, I don't really care whether people believe or not.

Just as long as they BELIEVE that God is TRUE and REAL, and that "jesus christ" is their saviour, right?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am I get the feeling from an earlier statement that you have not watched the video. I started this thread to see what people think of the evidence per the shroud - the negative image produced via some form of radiation.

The carbon dating done in the late 70s must have used part of the cloth that was restored in the 15th Century. Cameras did not exist then to comprehend a negative image and certainly no tech could have provided the embedded grayscale coding that using NASA tech can provide the contours required to build 3D image.

Have you EVER heard of 'confirmation bias'?

Either way, what ACTUALLY HAPPENS and OCCURS WITH 'confirmation bias' is, one ends up 'FINDING' and 'SEEING' what aligns with what that one was ALREADY BELIEVING is true.

you, "attofishpi", may NOT YET be FULLY AWARE of this phenomena nor of how it works, and plays out, EXACTLY, however you, like others, here, are EXPERTS IN 'confirmation bias'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am The shroud is REMARKABLE..that is the only reason I created this thread - I'd like others opinions, in particular, those of the atheists.

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am Really? It is THE biggest question of our time in relation to God. That this entity claims to exist and refuses to provide evidence to all of its existence and instead requires FAITH. The REASON for that is of great importance imo.

Don't care. Religion is to be understood through the traditions and practices of its followers.

I don't care that you don't care.

To not care is to fail to understand the reasoning for God's insistence of FAITH v DOUBT ---> THE MOST IMPORTANT concepts to the Y of GOD.

LOL

1. The MOST IMPORTANT concepts of God, Itself, is NOT 'faith versus doubt's, AT ALL. The MOST IMPORTANT concepts of God are the concepts that lead TO KNOWING they Self, God, Itself. Which are:

A Willingness, TO CHANGE, through absolute Honesty, and Openness, or W.H.O.

2. Were you AWARE that you just said and write that you 'do not care', and then straight after that you said and write that,
'To not care is to fail to understand ...'?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am

Skepdick wrote:You believe when you adopt those traditions/practices.

Rubbish.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:18 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:43 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:39 pm The shroud is an example of what people tend to refer to as a 'miracle'..

So why is your buddy still an atheist?

I don't think he is and I'm pretty certain I never made a statement that he remains atheist.

Any rational atheist that investigates the shroud and even just watches the entire video should have little doubt as to the veracity of Christian claims.

How about you provide a "rational" atheist explanation to the shroud & information embedded upon it, how it must have come into existence..without any 'divine hand'?

Your friend is a fiction lol. 0 chance any atheist out there gives a flying fuck about a bloody cum rag. It could have come into existence like any other dirty cum rag.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:02 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:18 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:43 pm

So why is your buddy still an atheist?

I don't think he is and I'm pretty certain I never made a statement that he remains atheist.

Any rational atheist that investigates the shroud and even just watches the entire video should have little doubt as to the veracity of Christian claims.

How about you provide a "rational" atheist explanation to the shroud & information embedded upon it, how it must have come into existence..without any 'divine hand'?

Your friend is a fiction lol. 0 chance any atheist out there gives a flying fuck about a bloody cum rag. It could have come into existence like any other dirty cum rag.

You're fucked

- provide evidence to support your claim(s)..

Provide evidence your friend is a fiction? Lol he's not here, is he? He's the "you don't know him, he goes to another school" type of friend lol. No rational person believes you have this friend.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:02 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:18 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:43 pm

So why is your buddy still an atheist?

I don't think he is and I'm pretty certain I never made a statement that he remains atheist.

Any rational atheist that investigates the shroud and even just watches the entire video should have little doubt as to the veracity of Christian claims.

How about you provide a "rational" atheist explanation to the shroud & information embedded upon it, how it must have come into existence..without any 'divine hand'?

Your friend is a fiction lol. 0 chance any atheist out there gives a flying fuck about a bloody cum rag. It could have come into existence like any other dirty cum rag.

You're fucked

- provide evidence to support your claim(s)..THAT the shroud of Turin amounts to "a bloody cum rag."

What else would it be? Looks like a bloody cum rag, smells like a bloody cum rag. You're the one calling it a miracle lol. I don't believe in children's stories.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:16 am What else would it be? Looks like a bloody cum rag, smells like a bloody cum rag. You're the one calling it a miracle lol. I don't believe in children's stories.

Clearly you haven't watched the video, since, if you did you'd not be treating this as some joke.

If you watched the video, scientists are at a loss as to HOW it was created, indeed, no scientist can explain how the image on the shroud came to be...either watch the video, or fuck off to hell.

If you want to read what atheists think who give this cum rag the time of day, here's some reading material.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheis ... henticity/

I like the this top level comment:

The fact that the first mention of the shroud is in 1354 should say enough. It shows up and no one knows from where. It depicts the already very heavy in use face of jesus as he would have been depicted by people from that time.

So weird, isn't it? That this miracle shroud goes unknown and untouched for thirteen hundred years and then miraculously shows up in Europe with a distinctly European looking face imprinted on it.

Lol

Reddit? Wow..lol indeed

Watch the video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=2s

- the radio carbon dating is incorrect per sampling part of the repaired shroud.
- answer how the image was formed upon the shroud - its suggested some form of radiation created the NEGATIVE image.
- 3D grayscale information embedded - wot 15C hokus pokus was this!!?

Weird how you can supposedly "wrap" a body in cloth and yet the imprint of his body shows not one sign of wrapping. It's like they laid the cloth flat, laid him down on it, and then folded it in half so that the other half covered the top side of his body. I'm not sure that's how you would "wrap" someone in a burial cloth. If he was really WRAPPED in a cloth, the cloth would have had folds and twists, and this the image of a man would not just be this perfectly straight easily recognizable image.

The doctor in your video also himself points out that this "photo negative" is imprinted on a non-photo-sensitive fabric. Is that not ringing alarm bells to you?

So a piece of fabric shows up in the 1300s, in Europe, with the perfect image (no folds or twisting) of a distinctly European looking man...

It's a piece of art my dude.

Flannel Jesus wrote:Weird how you can supposedly "wrap" a body in cloth and yet the imprint of his body shows not one sign of wrapping.

OMG – that’s the weird bit?

The point is, this is not a naturally caused shroud image. The shroud was EXPOSED via some form of radiation from the inside out – NOT simply because it wrapped a human body. God operates from below the Planck scale, it can do NE thing.

Flannel Jesus wrote:The doctor in your video also himself points out that this "photo negative" is imprinted on a non-photo-sensitive fabric. Is that not ringing alarm bells to you?

Yes, and it should for you-there is nothing natural about this, beyond the blood and sand crystals (that match sand in Jerusalem) on the knee and nose where Christ fell, and the pollen that is identical to that found in the area at the time of the Jewish Passover.

Watch the entire video, then get back to me with its shortcomings.

There's only shortcomings lol. Everything is just goofy and nonsense and it's full of just straight up falsehoods. "The anatomy is perfect" he says, while I'm looking at the longest fucking forearms and fingers in existence. He's a goofy boy, you're a goofy boy. Scientific analysis has this being a painting produced in the 1300s

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:13 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:01 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am I get the feeling from an earlier statement that you have not watched the video. I started this thread to see what people think of the evidence per the shroud - the negative image produced via some form of radiation.

I clicked on the link and the progress bar was at 45% or so. Tells me I got bored.

Thanks, I didn't real eyes the URL included the time!

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am To not care is to fail to understand the reasoning for God's insistence of FAITH v DOUBT ---> THE MOST IMPORTANT concepts to the Y of GOD.

*yawn*

ditto.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:18 am Faith is more useful than doubt when trying to move forward in life.

No, you're missing the key: Gnosis v Faith...as in Y would God leave people only with their faith if they choose to believe rather than giving all gnosis, knowledge of its existence. There is a far bigger reason than what you allude to.

WHY God lets you people LEARN ALL BY "yourselves" is BECAUSE human beings LEARN BEST BY 'their MISTAKES'. Also, WHY God lets you people think and do absolutely ANY think you like is BECAUSE you people do NOT like to be CONTROLLED, and you human beings actually achieve things BEST when left to YOUR OWN DEVICES, or WITH your OWN FREE WILL.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:13 am

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am
Rubbish.

Well, then you are the perfect sucker to fall for religion.

Eh? To the contrary. I am a Christian because I believe in the life of Christ...

So, what is it that you BELIEVE IN, EXACTLY?

And, LOL MANY PEOPLE can BELIEVE IN ' the life of "christ" ', (whatever that actually means), and be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING "christian" NOR "christ" like, AT ALL.

LOL MANY people BELIEVE IN 'the life' that there was a human being, called "jesus christ", who lived some 2,000 years before this was written, so does 'this' automatically make them A "christian"?

If yes, or no, then WHY?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:13 am I don't need to adopt any of MAN's versions of Christianity to consider myself a Christian.

LOL

HOW MANY 'versions' are there, EXACTLY?

And, HOW, EXACTLY, do you DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN them?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:26 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:18 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:13 am Thanks, I didn't real eyes the URL included the time!

Your URL included t=0 (from the start). My cache/browser history was at t=half way.

No, I just edited it, it was originally t=440s or sumfin.

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:13 am No, you're missing the key: Gnosis v Faith...as in Y would God leave people only with their faith if they choose to believe rather than giving all gnosis, knowledge of its existence. There is a far bigger reason than what you allude to.

You don't even understand what faith is. It's the suspension of doubt and moving forward.

Thoughtful action rather than endless contemplation.

While you are sitting on your ass doubting/doing philosophy/theology you aren't getting any closer to God. It's basic Theosis.

bla bla bla...

*yawns*

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:13 am Eh? To the contrary. I am a Christian because I believe in the life of Christ...I don't need to adopt MAN's version of Christianity to consider myself a Christian.

Believe - as in intellectually e.g you think it accurately reflects history; or believe as in - you get off your ass and be Christ-like with every moment of your being?

Funny that. It appears according to God, as it stated to me many times, that I am a good Christian (*ergo, a TRUE Christian)

Can't ask for much more than that

So, who and/or what is this God Thing, EXACTLY, which has, SUPPOSEDLY, STATED TO you, on MANY occasions, that 'you', the one known, here, as "attofishpi" is a GOOD "christian", and, HOW did 'that thing' STATE 'this' TO you, EXACTLY?

Also, and by the way, what even is A "christian" TO you, EXACTLY?

Not that you actually have the ABILITY TO CLARIFY these things, correct?