Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:34 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:26 pm
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:38 pm Reality is just fine, and will inevitably win. It always does.
I agree, the illusion of reality is just fine,
If you think reality is an illusion, then we've located the person who's deluded. But you'll find out. Reality always wins.

But I do not understand what you mean by that statement.

There is only reality, there is only the illusion.

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:40 pm**

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:12 pm
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:48 pm I said the opposite is also true,
The "opposite" of what?
You said, Determinism requires us to think of the world as a place in which morality is simply an illusion -- a inexplicable one, perhaps, but an illusion nonetheless.

To which I responded with: The opposite is also true...meaning: Morality is simply an illusion -- an explicable one, perhaps, but an illusion nonetheless.

Well, you were just wrong, then.

If reality is an illusion, then inevitably, so is morality. So no, that doesn't make it "explicable." You've "explicated" nothing.

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:41 pm**

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:34 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:26 pm
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:23 pm
I agree, the illusion of reality is just fine,
If you think reality is an illusion, then we've located the person who's deluded. But you'll find out. Reality always wins.
But I do not understand what you mean by that statement.

Yep. There she is.

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:48 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:41 pm
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:34 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:26 pm
If you think reality is an illusion, then we've located the person who's deluded. But you'll find out. Reality always wins.
But I do not understand what you mean by that statement.
Yep. There she is.

Yep, there she isn't.

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:58 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:40 pm
Well, you were just wrong, then.

If reality is an illusion, then inevitably, so is morality. So no, that doesn't make it "explicable." You've "explicated" nothing.

Well, you were just right, then. For something to be wrong, something has to be right.

Reality is an illusion, and so is morality an illusion, and so is immorality an illusion. And so is 'explicating' nothing an illusion. And so is 'explicating' something an illusion.

In the play of illusion, everything is at play, the play is an unreal / real play, albeit an illusory unreal real play.

Am I a role I'm playing, or am I playing a role?

Hmm!! now let me think about that!

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:12 pm**

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:58 pm Reality is an illusion, and so is morality an illusion, and so is immorality an illusion.

Well, you've got it now. If your first claim were true, then so would the other two be.

Too bad for that theory that the first claim will turn out to be wrong. But reality will show you that, just maybe not today.

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:25 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:12 pm
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:58 pm Reality is an illusion, and so is morality an illusion, and so is immorality an illusion.
Well, you've got it now. If your first claim were true, then so would the other two be.

Too bad for that theory that the first claim will turn out to be wrong. But reality will show you that, just maybe not today.

No one will ever need to show up to their own show. It's just too bad, I know. Tell me about it.

Posted: **Mon Jan 20, 2025 9:09 pm**

Not only 'ought' we embrace it...but we have to embrace it for "Morality, Responsibility, or Justice" to make any logical sense.

Determinism removes all possible 'Autonomy' and 'Agency' from the entire Universe.

Posted: **Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:40 am**

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 9:09 pm Not only 'ought' we embrace it...but we have to embrace it for "Morality, Responsibility, or Justice" to make any logical sense.

Determinism removes all possible 'Autonomy' and 'Agency' from the entire Universe.

I think we ought to remove the concepts of free will and determinism from our thoughts altogether, these concepts only serve to muddy the already crystal clear clarity that is already being this pure aliveness, living itself, for itself, and for no other self. That self is Consciousness alone.

Consciousness is fundamental and is that which embodies every single living life form on the planet. Consciousness is the living God so to speak. Trust in that process only, trust in natures capacity to beat every living heart. I mean what could possibly go wrong when there is total abidance in alignment with what feels right and comfortable. That's all conscious sentience cares about really, about what feels comfortable and peaceful for the body. That's why the body demands to sleep. No conscious sentient form can resist sleep, they have no control over when sleep happens, or even control of when awakening from sleep happens, the body in always in control, not the mind, the body is it's own intelligence, listening to the body is intelligence, not listening to the intellect, so trust what the body wants, and surrender to that only.

And do not forget to remember. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You’re the same decaying organic matter as everything else. You are part of the rotting corpse of God's body.

“God has died, and his death was the life of the world.”
“The universe is the rotting corpse of a God who killed himself.”

Posted: **Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:17 am**

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:40 am
Wizard22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 9:09 pm Not only 'ought' we embrace it...but we have to embrace it for "Morality, Responsibility, or Justice" to make any logical sense.

Determinism removes all possible 'Autonomy' and 'Agency' from the entire Universe.
I think we ought to remove the concepts of free will and determinism from our thoughts altogether, these concepts only serve to muddy the already crystal clear clarity that is already being this pure aliveness, living itself, for itself, and for no other self. That self is Consciousness alone.

Consciousness is fundamental and is that which embodies every single living life form on the planet. Consciousness is the living God so to speak. Trust in that process only, trust in natures capacity to beat every living heart. I mean what could possibly go wrong when there is total abidance in alignment with what feels right and comfortable. That's all conscious sentience cares about really, about what feels comfortable and peaceful for the body. That's why the body demands to sleep. No conscious sentient form can resist sleep, they have no control over when sleep happens, or even control of when awakening from sleep happens, the body in always in control, not the mind, the body is it's own intelligence, listening to the body is intelligence, not listening to the intellect, so trust what the body wants, and surrender to that only.

And do not forget to remember. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You’re the same decaying organic matter as everything else. You are part of the rotting corpse of God's body.

“God has died, and his death was the life of the world.”
“The universe is the rotting corpse of a God who killed himself.”

Best thing I've seen you write. Better appreciate it while it lasts

Posted: **Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:56 am**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:45 am Whether we have free will or not, we ought to act as though we do.

When you say and write, 'We ought to act as though we do have 'free will', what do you mean by, 'free will', EXACTLY?

The IRREFUTABLE Truth IS, ' you human beings DO HAVE 'free will', anyway'.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:45 am As long as there is any possibility of free will whatsoever, then we ought to embrace free will over determinism.

LOL There is NO SITUATION, EVER, where it is either, 'free will' OVER 'determinism', NOR 'determinism' OVER 'free will'.

you human beings ARE GOVERNED BY BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism'. And, there is NOT AN ACTUAL SINGLE thing you human beings can do ABOUT this Fact.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:45 am Determinism seems amoral because it undermines the possibility of responsibility for our actions.

Which is OBVIOUSLY False.

Although a LOT of you adult human beings BLAME some thing/one else for MOST OF your misbehavior, it is OBVIOUS that you ARE RESPONSIBLE for what you DO and DO NOT DO.

So, 'determinism', ALONE, or ONLY, is OBVIOUSLY RULED OUT.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:45 am And responsibility ought to be weighed according to how egregious or not an action is.

LOL WHY, EXACTLY, should one be MORE RESPONSIBLE for just doing some thing WORSE, or MORE Wrong?

ABSOLUTELY EVERY adult human being is ABSOLUTELY 100% RESPONSIBLE for ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing that they do, and/or do NOT DO. FULL STOP, and, END OF STORY.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:45 am Such responsibility cannot realistically be applied to a deterministic system.

OBVIOUSLY what 'we' CLEARLY HAVE, here, is ANOTHER one who just does NOT YET COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND what the words and terms 'free will' and 'determinism' MEAN or are REFERRING TO, EXACTLY.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:45 am There ought to be no excuses for some acts.

There is NO 'excuse' for ANY MIS, Wrong, or BAD behavior.

There ARE, however, REASONS.

Posted: **Wed Jan 22, 2025 3:57 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:40 pm
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:12 pm
The "opposite" of what?
You said, Determinism requires us to think of the world as a place in which morality is simply an illusion -- a inexplicable one, perhaps, but an illusion nonetheless.

To which I responded with: The opposite is also true...meaning: Morality is simply an illusion -- an explicable one, perhaps, but an illusion nonetheless.
Well, you were just wrong, then.

If reality is an illusion, then inevitably, so is morality. So no, that doesn't make it "explicable." You've "explicated" nothing.

Generally, 'reality is an illusion' is a counter against the majority's philosophical realism which claim [hypostatize or reify] that reality is absolutely mind-independent plus theism's absolutely mind-independent God, i.e. both exist regardless of whether there are human or not.

For the anti-philosophical_realist [empirical realist], reality is really-real in the empirical sense and this can be verified and justified as empirically real and relatively mind-independent.
For the empirical realist, morality is natural, real and objective to guide humans towards optimal well-being and flourishing of the individual[s] and humanity.

Posted: **Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:53 am**

Non stop word salad from VA. If reality is an illusion, and morality is real, then morality is an illusion lol.

Posted: **Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:39 pm**

I think there may be different connotations for the phrase: "reality is an illusion".

One connotation of that phrase may be that the senses give us reasonably accurate information that we can use to navigate the material world, except that it's not in the exact shape or form that things in themselves truly are in the material world if we take away the lenses of the human senses. That the mind organizes information somewhat differently than what is actually the case out in the world but is not completely useless to us. In that sense "illusion" maybe means not %100 accurate but accurate enough for humans to interact with the world in ways that would not result in our destruction.

The connotation that seems to be providing the most difficulty is the idea that "illusion" is something like a hallucination of seeing a pool of water in the desert where there really is not a pool of water, that our senses are so far off the mark, that we live in a completely fake world that our senses provide and never shall the senses and reality correspond in any way shape or form.

It sounds like there is an equivocation between the two connotations above that is causing a lot of argument.

Posted: **Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:43 pm**

Age wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:56 am There is NO 'excuse' for ANY MIS, Wrong, or BAD behavior.

There ARE, however, REASONS.

Fair enough. I concur.

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