Philosophy Now Forum

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 2:02 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:25 am While we're talking about Blindness, here's an interesting thought experiment (turned real experiment):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molyneux%27s_problem

Basically, the thought experiment goes like this: take a blind person who is familiar by touch with various shapes, eg squares circles triangles stars. This blind person knows what they feel like and can distinguish between them easily by touch, but of course they've never seen these shapes.

Now give that blind person sight and ask them, using sight alone, to say which one is the square, the circle, the triangle or the star.

To most sighted people it seems intuitively like that shouldn't be particularly hard -- that the visual experience of these shapes matches the tactile experience in an obvious and intuitive way that even a person who is seeing for the first time should understand. But the reality is more complex apparently.

I like the fact that they finally managed to answer it, after hundreds of years.

The 3D mental map I have in my mind of shapes, places and so on probably bears little or no relation to what they look like.

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 2:02 pm I like the fact that they finally managed to answer it, after hundreds of years.

The 3D mental map I have in my mind of shapes, places and so on probably bears little or no relation to what they look like.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:10 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 2:02 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:25 am While we're talking about Blindness, here's an interesting thought experiment (turned real experiment):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molyneux%27s_problem

Basically, the thought experiment goes like this: take a blind person who is familiar by touch with various shapes, eg squares circles triangles stars. This blind person knows what they feel like and can distinguish between them easily by touch, but of course they've never seen these shapes.

Now give that blind person sight and ask them, using sight alone, to say which one is the square, the circle, the triangle or the star.

To most sighted people it seems intuitively like that shouldn't be particularly hard -- that the visual experience of these shapes matches the tactile experience in an obvious and intuitive way that even a person who is seeing for the first time should understand. But the reality is more complex apparently.

I like the fact that they finally managed to answer it, after hundreds of years.

The 3D mental map I have in my mind of shapes, places and so on probably bears little or no relation to what they look like.

I think it does bear a relationship, but that relationship isn't necessarily obvious to someone seeing for the first time.

I mean, someone who's seen for their whole life can feel a shape they've never felt before, and could probably have a good guess on what that shape looks like.

But someone who has never seen has never excercised those mental muscles to understand how those things relate to each other. What's odd is, to a sighted person, it seems like it should be obvious, even to someone who's only just begun seeing, but regardless of how it seems to us, it's just not the case. And that raises some interesting questions I think.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:18 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 2:02 pm I like the fact that they finally managed to answer it, after hundreds of years.

The 3D mental map I have in my mind of shapes, places and so on probably bears little or no relation to what they look like.

I've been wondering how I would try to explain sight to someone who can't imagine it. Maybe like this: it's like touch but from a distance, we can tell what the surface of something is like, without touching it, from a distance. Also, we see all the surfaces around us all at once. It's like touching everything around you all at once, even things that are far away.

Except I think touch is a feeling, while sight doesn't feel like anything. It's an impression without feeling. More like a thought I guess.

And even surfaces that feel the same when touched, can appear differently when seen. Those are the different colors. But also, surfaces that feel differently when touched, can have the same color. It's like touch with 2 different dimensions I guess, shape and color.

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:46 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:18 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 2:02 pm I like the fact that they finally managed to answer it, after hundreds of years.

The 3D mental map I have in my mind of shapes, places and so on probably bears little or no relation to what they look like.

I've been wondering how I would try to explain sight to someone who can't imagine it. Maybe like this: it's like touch but from a distance, we can tell what the surface of something is like, without touching it, from a distance. Also, we see all the surfaces around us all at once. It's like touching everything around you all at once, even things that are far away.

Except I think touch is a feeling, while sight doesn't feel like anything. It's an impression without feeling. More like a thought I guess.

And even surfaces that feel the same when touched, can appear differently when seen. Those are the different colors. But also, surfaces that feel differently when touched, can have the same color. It's like touch with 2 different dimensions I guess, shape and color.

I can tell different surfaces apart, glass, bricks, wood, and so on, by echolocation, without having to touch them.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:22 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:46 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:18 pm

I've been wondering how I would try to explain sight to someone who can't imagine it. Maybe like this: it's like touch but from a distance, we can tell what the surface of something is like, without touching it, from a distance. Also, we see all the surfaces around us all at once. It's like touching everything around you all at once, even things that are far away.

Except I think touch is a feeling, while sight doesn't feel like anything. It's an impression without feeling. More like a thought I guess.

And even surfaces that feel the same when touched, can appear differently when seen. Those are the different colors. But also, surfaces that feel differently when touched, can have the same color. It's like touch with 2 different dimensions I guess, shape and color.

I can tell different surfaces apart, glass, bricks, wood, and so on, by echolocation, without having to touch them.

Huhh, why haven't I heard of this before, why isn't human echolocation common knowledge? I thought the Daredevil movie was just fantasy..

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:29 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:22 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:46 pm

I can tell different surfaces apart, glass, bricks, wood, and so on, by echolocation, without having to touch them.

Huhh, why haven't I heard of this before, why isn't human echolocation common knowledge? I thought the Daredevil movie was just fantasy..

I don't know why it isn't more widely known about.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:36 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:29 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:22 pm
Huhh, why haven't I heard of this before, why isn't human echolocation common knowledge? I thought the Daredevil movie was just fantasy..

I don't know why it isn't more widely known about.

If you don't mind me asking, say you're in a room, can you put a number on how many objects you can perceive at the same time using echolocation? Or is that not how it works?

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:42 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:36 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:29 pm

I don't know why it isn't more widely known about.

If you don't mind me asking, say you're in a room, can you put a number on how many objects you can perceive at the same time using echolocation? Or is that not how it works?

Yes, I can easily tell, for example, how many chairs there are in a room. Or people. Or tables, and so on. And how big the room is too. It's simultaneous, in all directions.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:54 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:42 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:36 pm
If you don't mind me asking, say you're in a room, can you put a number on how many objects you can perceive at the same time using echolocation? Or is that not how it works?

Yes, I can easily tell, for example, how many chairs there are in a room. Or people. Or tables, and so on. And how big the room is too. It's simultaneous, in all directions.

Does rain help with echolocation or does it hinder it?

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:59 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:54 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:42 pm

Yes, I can easily tell, for example, how many chairs there are in a room. Or people. Or tables, and so on. And how big the room is too. It's simultaneous, in all directions.

Does rain help with echolocation or does it hinder it?

It hinders it. As does, for example, snow on the ground.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:10 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:59 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:54 pm
Does rain help with echolocation or does it hinder it?

It hinders it. As does, for example, snow on the ground.

And can you also use echolocation say in a forest?

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:14 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:10 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:59 pm

It hinders it. As does, for example, snow on the ground.

And can you also use echolocation say in a forest?

Yes, absolutely. It's extremely useful, in a forest.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:29 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:14 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:10 pm
And can you also use echolocation say in a forest?

Yes, absolutely. It's extremely useful, in a forest.

And in a noisy downtown or anywhere with a lot of loud noise? Is it still usable?

I wonder if your brain/mind processes sounds so much more heavily than most of us do, that it uses additional regions for it.

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:38 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:29 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:14 pm

Yes, absolutely. It's extremely useful, in a forest.

And in a noisy downtown or anywhere with a lot of loud noise? Is it still usable?

I wonder if your brain/mind processes sounds so much more heavily than most of us do, that it uses additional regions for it.

It's still usable, unless the noise is really bad. Any normal sort of noise, including a busy street, is fine.

According to CT scans that I've had, my visual cortex has been mostly repurposed to be stimulated by sound input. Which is one major reason, incidentally, that I'm loathe to have things stuck into it.