Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:40 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:39 pm
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:34 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 7:45 pm
Because whatever is the most valuable thing in the universe IS the thing most deserving of our affection. By definition, there's nothing higher.
But I'm not asking what is most deserving of our affection, I'm asking what God considers to be the most deserving of his affection.
Well, "supreme" means that there isn't anything greater -- in any dimension of value.

Your determination not to answer what I thought was a simple and innocuous question is puzzling, but you must have your reasons.

IC wrote:
Harbal wrote:I put it down to not being conditioned or brainwashed to the same extent as some people, or maybe not being as susceptible to the effects of it as some.
Can you be brainwashed or conditioned into Atheism, or is it only people from other places and cultures that can be brainwashed and conditioned by their ethos?

Yes, I've heard arguments for atheism that don't stand up, yet some people have found them persuasive. I daresay people can be "brainwashed" out of a belief just the same as into a belief. I grew up with no pressure either way. I don't care what you say, all religious belief is irrational. Even so, many/most of us abandon rationality and do believe in some sort of god, to some extent. I can only guess there is an emotional/psychologic need in human beings that accounts for that; the so called god shaped hole. Some of us just don't have that need, for some reason or another. The thought of living in a pointless world seems to freak some people out, but it doesn't bother me at all. And I can't see what point God would give to the world, anyway. I don't think it matters whether people believe in God, or don't believe, as long as they don't try to interfere with everyone else's choice on the matter. I must say that your assertion that God, the demands of God, the demands of religion, must come before all else is something I find disturbing.. Before family, before friends, before all human beings? No, that can't go unchallenged. That's wrong, IC, it's just plain wrong.

Posted: **Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:42 pm**

Fairy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:09 pm IC, just leave me.

Don't worry. I'm not "with you." I'm on a philosophy site.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 12:04 am**

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:40 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:39 pm
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:34 pm
But I'm not asking what is most deserving of our affection, I'm asking what God considers to be the most deserving of his affection.
Well, "supreme" means that there isn't anything greater -- in any dimension of value.
Your determination not to answer what I thought was a simple and innocuous question is puzzling, but you must have your reasons.

I am answering it. I don't know why you don't like the answer...but I can't make you like it, so you'll have to please yourself.

IC wrote:
Harbal wrote:I put it down to not being conditioned or brainwashed to the same extent as some people, or maybe not being as susceptible to the effects of it as some.
Can you be brainwashed or conditioned into Atheism, or is it only people from other places and cultures that can be brainwashed and conditioned by their ethos?
Yes, I've heard arguments for atheism that don't stand up, yet some people have found them persuasive. I daresay people can be "brainwashed" out of a belief just the same as into a belief.

I agree. People can even be brainwashed into a true belief, if not-being-brainwashed requires the believer of the idea to know the reasoning and evidence behind it. For example, most people will accept that the universe is expanding, but only because their science teacher says so. That might be brainwashing, if they don't know about things like the red shift effect, say. They're believing something true, but for no good reason.

I don't care what you say, all religious belief is irrational.

Now, how would you know that? Were you brainwashed into believing it, or have you actually investigated every religion, and discovered that none can ever be rational? You really seem to think you know, to the point you can say, "I don't care what you say..." But how good is your evidence for that "knowledge"?

...the so called god shaped hole...

If that phenomenon is real, then it's a phenomenon that stands in need of some explanation, in its own right. Why would a totally godless universe manage to inculcate in so many people a belief in such a thing? It seems an impossible question even to ask, though, since a Materialist or Physicalist universe has no "why" to it at all, by definition.

Still, here's this odd phenomenon: almost everybody -- over 92% of the world's population today, and even more in the past, have a "god-shaped hole" in their psychological makeup? That needs explaining, for sure.

Some of us just don't have that need, for some reason or another.

Well, since not more than 4% of the world's population, even today, seems to have that need, is it possible that there's something missing from you? Or have you been enculturated or brainwashed into disbelief?

I don't think it matters whether people believe in God,

Well, we'll see. I think it matters both now and later, and you think it doesn't now, and won't later. One day, later comes.

I must say that your assertion that God, the demands of God, the demands of religion, must come before all else is something I find disturbing.. Before family, before friends, before all human beings? No, that can't go unchallenged. That's wrong, IC, it's just plain wrong.

Wait.

How can anything be...what's your word? "Wrong"?

If you live in a universe with no god, and hence no moral absolutes, how can you suppose that doing ANYTHING can be "wrong"? You'll have to explain that one to me, if you can.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 12:39 am**

"…………………….

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:00 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 12:04 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:40 pm I must say that your assertion that God, the demands of God, the demands of religion, must come before all else is something I find disturbing.. Before family, before friends, before all human beings? No, that can't go unchallenged. That's wrong, IC, it's just plain wrong.
Wait.

How can anything be...what's your word? "Wrong"? If you live in a universe with no god, and hence no moral absolutes, how can you suppose that doing ANYTHING can be "wrong"? You'll have to explain that one to me, if you can.

You have chosen to base your moral position on God, or at least that is what I understand you to have claimed, although I suspect it's more that God has adapted his moral outlook to coincide with yours. Well I, too, have a moral outlook, but mine has nothing to do with God. I have no particular fondness for people in general, yet I can't help feeling a sense of moral responsibility towards them. I'm not asking you to accept the legitimacy of that moral sense, so I need explain nothing to you, it only matters that I consider it legitimate, and I do. When I say you are wrong, I don't say it with any hope or expectation of its having any influence on you, I just say it because it needs to be said.

I haven't responded to the first part of your reply because I don't want to get embroiled in something as pointless as arguing over the existence of God.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:13 am**

……………

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:18 am**

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:00 am I have no particular fondness for people in general, yet I can't help feeling a sense of moral responsibility towards them.

What a liar. Well done tricking everyone into thinking you are Mr nice guy the cool dude who makes everyone laugh, when all you are is a puny little underwhelming lying con artist.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:25 am**

Preserving these in case DAM gets poster's remorse...

Fairy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:13 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:00 am
I haven't responded to the first part of your reply because I don't want to get embroiled in something as pointless as arguing over the existence of God.

And yet here you are again, arguing with Can about a God you have no fucking investment or interest in whatsoever, you absolute shit face boring arse weirdo hypocrite. You really just love the smell of your own farts don't you. Why, are you even showing up to a topic that you have no interest is is beyond fucking stupid, but then most men on this forum are I suppose. You just couldn't wait for Can to return could you, so you could feel all mighty and powerful telling his how wrong he is and how right you are, you absolute control freak.

Fairy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:18 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:00 am I have no particular fondness for people in general, yet I can't help feeling a sense of moral responsibility towards them.
What a liar. Well done tricking everyone into thinking you are Mr nice guy the cool dude who makes everyone laugh, when all you are is a puny little underwhelming lying con artist.

Just love the Jekyll & Hyde routine, DAM (artsy-fartsy and zennish one moment, the woman scorned the next).

H, you sure can pick'em.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:33 am**

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:25 am Preserving these in case DAM gets poster's remorse...

Fairy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:13 am "……………………….

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:34 am**

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:00 amI'm not asking you to accept the legitimacy of that moral sense

Not to speak for him, but I'm pretty sure, like me, he finds your moral sense legit.

The question: is this sense just a psychological idiosyncrasy (just a subjective brain fart) or is it a reflection of an objective moral reality?

I believe it is the latter (cuz you're not the only one).

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:35 am**

Fairy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:33 am

Whatever you say, Edward.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:52 am**

………….

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:53 am**

Fairy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 12:39 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:42 pm
Fairy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:09 pm IC, just leave me.
Don't worry. I'm not "with you." I'm on a philosophy site.
I meant stop talking to me...

I'll do that right now.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:54 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:53 am
Fairy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 12:39 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:42 pm
Don't worry. I'm not "with you." I'm on a philosophy site.
I meant stop talking to me...
I'll do that right now.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2024 2:00 am**

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:34 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:00 amI'm not asking you to accept the legitimacy of that moral sense
Not to speak for him, but I'm pretty sure, like me, he finds your moral sense legit.

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