Philosophy Now Forum

I don't have time to engage with post today, tomorrow yes,
today, no...

so, I shall note some general thoughts....

one: that the right tends to, TENDS to think of sexual matters as
being more EVIL, than other acts... I point to America and the right
''fetish'' about sexual matters.... the call in America to kill and imprison
homosexuals and trans people.... earlier someone noted the
Muslim call for the death of homosexuals.... that is true in modern
day America as well... and this is based on the word of the bible.....
the radical religious right would happily support the death penalty
for homosexuals here in America...a pastor at the Stedfast Baptist
Church in Texas told his congregation that gay people should be lined
up and shot...a pastor named Dillion Awes... and Pastor Joe Jones
of the ''Shield of faith Baptist church of Boise Idaho has done the same...
as has congressman Tim Walberg, R-Michigan has said he supported
the anti-homosexual laws of Uganda, which calls for the death penalty
of gays..

whereas on the left, we take violence itself to be the problem....
Murder, which is violence is considered by the left, for the most part,
as being a greater evil than sexual acts.....

and therein lies the problem...... How do we find the truth that
''which evil'' is a greater evil????? and herein lies that the left
and right see ''evil'' being different things....

before we can consider whether the bible or the Koran is ''more evil'''
we have to work out what is evil and why that thing can be considered
to be ''more evil''... are sexual acts ''more evil'' than violence?
and based on what criteria? on what standard can we ''know''
which evil is a greater evil?

now the second question that ''bothers'' me is someone mentioned
that they are a ''Christian'' who will only accept the new testament,
and the word of Jesus...... but the bible, isn't a book about two
different and distinct gods, the old testament god and the New Testament
god..... they are one and the same....or so we have been told....
for me, I much prefer the old testament over the new....

having read both, I prefer the old over the New Testament because
the old has passion and is full of fire where people wrestle with god
over matters of faith.... the New Testament is lacks passion and fire...
the only person with passion is Jesus himself...and even he is written
rather blandly... the new testament has people who think about faith,
the old has people living and dying with faith.... it is a very serious
thing, faith, in the old testament, not in the new....

in the old god is not some abstract idea but a living breathing god
who is not above wrestling with people about matters of faith....
the new testament god is, well boring and without any passion or fire....
the new testament god reeks of the head and the Old Testament is of
the heart.....

Kropotkin

puto wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:18 pm Hold on, you are using the internet and wikipedia for your research?

K: to whom are you referring to?

Kropotkin

Veritas Aequitas, you were using the internet for your research?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:35 pm I don't have time to engage with post today, tomorrow yes,
today, no...

so, I shall note some general thoughts....

one: that the right tends to, TENDS to think of sexual matters as
being more EVIL, than other acts... I point to America and the right
''fetish'' about sexual matters.... the call in America to kill and imprison
homosexuals and trans people.... earlier someone noted the
Muslim call for the death of homosexuals.... that is true in modern
day America as well... and this is based on the word of the bible.....
the radical religious right would happily support the death penalty
for homosexuals here in America...a pastor at the Stedfast Baptist
Church in Texas told his congregation that gay people should be lined
up and shot...a pastor named Dillion Awes... and Pastor Joe Jones
of the ''Shield of faith Baptist church of Boise Idaho has done the same...
as has congressman Tim Walberg, R-Michigan has said he supported
the anti-homosexual laws of Uganda, which calls for the death penalty
of gays..

whereas on the left, we take violence itself to be the problem....
Murder, which is violence is considered by the left, for the most part,
as being a greater evil than sexual acts.....

and therein lies the problem...... How do we find the truth that
''which evil'' is a greater evil????? and herein lies that the left
and right see ''evil'' being different things....

before we can consider whether the bible or the Koran is ''more evil'''
we have to work out what is evil and why that thing can be considered
to be ''more evil''... are sexual acts ''more evil'' than violence?
and based on what criteria? on what standard can we ''know''
which evil is a greater evil?

You didn't consider that Islam could be worse than Christianity at both "sexual matters" and "violence", so the issue you bring up could be irrelevant?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 11:45 am I haven't read the Quran and am only going off hearsay, but is it true that there are more passages in the Quran that call for violence than in the New Testament?

There are violent related elements in both the NT [mild] and the Quran [very much more evil laden].

The difference between the two is how those violent elements are driving believers to be obligated to commit violent acts.

The NT has an overriding maxim, i.e. love all even enemies, give the other cheek.
Therefore a Christian who commit evil acts against others even enemies would have sinned thus could be punished.
Then it is up to God to forgive them if the act is forgivable or was committed for a just cause as judged by God.

On the other hand, the Quran literally commands and give sanctions to believers to kill non-believers upon the slightest threats to the religions, e.g. even drawing cartoons and other insults.
Those believers who do not kill non-believers in the event of committing the threats [even slightest] would have sinned in the eyes of their God, i.e. not complying with the 'contracted' terms as obligated from a contracted believer.
Those who kill non-believers upon such threats [and are martyred] will be heavily rewarded 10x than ordinary believers.

puto wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 6:34 pm Veritas Aequitas, you were using the internet for your research?

Yes, mainly but not totally.
I rely on whatever sources that will help my research.
Why ask such a question?

With the internet, I can read >50 English translations of the Quran and also learn basic Arabic and much more.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:35 pm before we can consider whether the bible or the Koran is ''more evil'''
we have to work out what is evil and why that thing can be considered
to be ''more evil''... are sexual acts ''more evil'' than violence?
and based on what criteria? on what standard can we ''know''
which evil is a greater evil?

Kropotkin

If you are wanting to take up the challenge regarding the my Christian faith (Bible) in comparison to Islam (Koran) with regard to evil you need to understand that the FOCUS should be on what followers of Christ v MorHamMad are instructed to do as part of their faith. If you agree to that, then sure the challenge could entertain some of the OT buy_bull nonsense.

Age wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 1:35 pm And, some of those people think or believe that they are 'fighting', 'in the name of God', or 'for God', or they are under some sort of delusion like, ' God is on "our side" '. So-called "christians" can be the biggest hypocrites sometimes, and be completely and utterly disillusioned.

Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to kill non believers and indeed kill in the name of God?


(Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 1:35 pm And, some of those people think or believe that they are 'fighting', 'in the name of God', or 'for God', or they are under some sort of delusion like, ' God is on "our side" '. So-called "christians" can be the biggest hypocrites sometimes, and be completely and utterly disillusioned.

Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to kill non believers and indeed kill in the name of God?


(Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

My analysis of the Quran revealed more than 300 verses related to violence on non-believers.
The fundamental one is 5:33.

Here is one of among the >300 verses related to violence on non-believers;

• [2:216]Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
  — M. Pickthall

The usual the apologist will give all sorts of excuses to the above citing it is related to circumstances.
The above is supported by 5:33 and believers have been doing that to please their God.

Why the inherent evilness within the holy text is so dangerous and critical to humanity, is even if 10% of believers are seriously compliant, that is a pool of 150 million of them.
It only took around 20 to do a 911.
If the majority still need a religion via theism, it would be most effective all M believers to convert pacifistic Christianity for the present.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 1:35 pm And, some of those people think or believe that they are 'fighting', 'in the name of God', or 'for God', or they are under some sort of delusion like, ' God is on "our side" '. So-called "christians" can be the biggest hypocrites sometimes, and be completely and utterly disillusioned.

Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to kill non believers and indeed kill in the name of God?

My whole point about the saying, 'kill non believers', is that what that actually means and references is absolutely nothing like what you, and many, many others, interpret that to mean.

Also, I only know what is written in books from what you people tell me. And, I have heard that it is written in the Bible, 'An eye for an eye, and/or a tooth for a tooth', which could be interpreted as, 'It is all right, and/or even expected, to kill you human beings, under specific circumstances'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am (Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

If you would like to have 'a discussion', then let me know. However, if you want to interpret that in one way only, then, please, by all means keep doing so.

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:52 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 1:35 pm And, some of those people think or believe that they are 'fighting', 'in the name of God', or 'for God', or they are under some sort of delusion like, ' God is on "our side" '. So-called "christians" can be the biggest hypocrites sometimes, and be completely and utterly disillusioned.

Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to kill non believers and indeed kill in the name of God?

My whole point about the saying, 'kill non believers', is that what that actually means and references is absolutely nothing like what you, and many, many others, interpret that to mean.

Also, I only know what is written in books from what you people tell me. And, I have heard that it is written in the Bible, 'An eye for an eye, and/or a tooth for a tooth', which could be interpreted as, 'It is all right, and/or even expected, to kill you human beings, under specific circumstances'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am (Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

If you would like to have 'a discussion', then let me know. However, if you want to interpret that in one way only, then, please, by all means keep doing so.

Off you go as usual with deflection and not providing actual answers.

Again. Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to KILL in the name of God?

..and, what part of the below is NOT instructing followers of Islam to kill in the name of Allah?

(Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:40 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 1:35 pm And, some of those people think or believe that they are 'fighting', 'in the name of God', or 'for God', or they are under some sort of delusion like, ' God is on "our side" '. So-called "christians" can be the biggest hypocrites sometimes, and be completely and utterly disillusioned.

Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to kill non believers and indeed kill in the name of God?


(Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

My analysis of the Quran revealed more than 300 verses related to violence on non-believers.

Is it possible that 'your own biases' swayed 'your analysis' here in any way at all?

Or, is this not a possibility, to you?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:40 am The fundamental one is 5:33.

Here is one of among the >300 verses related to violence on non-believers;

• [2:216]Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
  — M. Pickthall

The usual the apologist will give all sorts of excuses to the above citing it is related to circumstances.

And, the so-called "unapologist" will give excuses for how they mis/interpret the above, and for anything else that they are 'unapologitic' towards.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:40 am The above is supported by 5:33 and believers have been doing that to please their God.

Look "veritas aequitas" I have questioned you many, many times regarding your beliefs and claims here. you have failed, absolutely, on every occassion to answer them. And, this is because you know, instinctively, that you could never ever back up and support your beliefs and claims here with any thing of actual soundness and validity.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:40 am Why the inherent evilness within the holy text is so dangerous and critical to humanity, is even if 10% of believers are seriously compliant, that is a pool of 150 million of them.

Why the 'inherent evilness' in the so-called 'holy text' of the bible is so dangerous is because it and all of the other books and texts in 'the world' that are dangerous is because they were written by you adult human beings. Which, obviously, is the most 'inherently dangerous' animal and creature on the planet.

Now, for you people to, still be, believing in and following and abiding by the 'words of adult human beings', and even worse the 'words of male human beings', is beyond Wrongness and evilness.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:40 am It only took around 20 to do a 911.

And, what happened on the day is absolutely nothing, compared to what is actually coming. And, it only took One for 'this coming'.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:40 am If the majority still need a religion via theism, it would be most effective all M believers to convert pacifistic Christianity for the present.

Why do absolutely any of you, still, believe that you 'need' to believe things?

Can you people still really not yet see that all of you are "the believers", and why you are killing 'each other' is because you believe (in) different things.

When you ever discover what the actual only Thing to believe in really is, then you will learn and see the True interpretation of what 'killing non believers' really means and is really referring to, exactly.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:02 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:52 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am

Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to kill non believers and indeed kill in the name of God?

My whole point about the saying, 'kill non believers', is that what that actually means and references is absolutely nothing like what you, and many, many others, interpret that to mean.

Also, I only know what is written in books from what you people tell me. And, I have heard that it is written in the Bible, 'An eye for an eye, and/or a tooth for a tooth', which could be interpreted as, 'It is all right, and/or even expected, to kill you human beings, under specific circumstances'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am (Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

If you would like to have 'a discussion', then let me know. However, if you want to interpret that in one way only, then, please, by all means keep doing so.

Off you go as usual with deflection and not providing actual answers.

Again. Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to KILL in the name of God?

The bible is claimed to be the 'word of God', is it not?

In the bible, the claimed 'word of God', it states, 'An eye for an eye'. Which, obviously, literally, could be taken as meaning 'KILL in the name/word of God', under specific circumstances.

And, I have never said that God said that. I said that you adult human beings fight and KILL each other, 'in the name of God'. Those words are used by some of you, mostly "christian soldiers" when going off to KILL other human beings.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:02 am ..and, what part of the below is NOT instructing followers of Islam to kill in the name of Allah?

(Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

you, obviously, do not want to have 'a discussion'.

you, obviously, want to keep believing that the word 'kill' means and is referring to 'human bodies' and not to what that word is actually referring to, exactly.

So, once again,if you want to interpret things in one way only here, then, please, by all means keep doing so.

Keep 'believing' what you want to here "attofishpi". Obviously you will have absolutely nothing at all to worry about because it is only the 'non believers' who are to be 'killed' right?

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:12 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:02 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:52 am

My whole point about the saying, 'kill non believers', is that what that actually means and references is absolutely nothing like what you, and many, many others, interpret that to mean.

Also, I only know what is written in books from what you people tell me. And, I have heard that it is written in the Bible, 'An eye for an eye, and/or a tooth for a tooth', which could be interpreted as, 'It is all right, and/or even expected, to kill you human beings, under specific circumstances'.



If you would like to have 'a discussion', then let me know. However, if you want to interpret that in one way only, then, please, by all means keep doing so.

Off you go as usual with deflection and not providing actual answers.

Again. Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to KILL in the name of God?

The bible is claimed to be the 'word of God', is it not?

In the bible, the claimed 'word of God', it states, 'An eye for an eye'. Which, obviously, literally, could be taken as meaning 'KILL in the name/word of God', under specific circumstances.

Where does it state that in the Bible? More to the point, where does Christ state that?

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:12 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:02 am ..and, what part of the below is NOT instructing followers of Islam to kill in the name of Allah?

(Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

you, obviously, do not want to have 'a discussion'.

you, obviously, want to keep believing that the word 'kill' means and is referring to 'human bodies' and not to what that word is actually referring to, exactly.

So, once again,if you want to interpret things in one way only here, then, please, by all means keep doing so.

Keep 'believing' what you want to here "attofishpi". Obviously you will have absolutely nothing at all to worry about because it is only the 'non believers' who are to be 'killed' right?

ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE A MORON NOT WORTHY OF INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:17 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:12 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:02 am

Off you go as usual with deflection and not providing actual answers.

Again. Where are Christians instructed in the Bible to KILL in the name of God?

The bible is claimed to be the 'word of God', is it not?

In the bible, the claimed 'word of God', it states, 'An eye for an eye'. Which, obviously, literally, could be taken as meaning 'KILL in the name/word of God', under specific circumstances.

Where does it state that in the Bible? More to the point, where does Christ state that?

Did you not read what I said and wrote above here.

I said and wrote, 'I only know what is written in books from what you people tell me'. I said and wrote that because of this question that you were going to/are asking me here. How can I have any clue where 'it' is stated in the bible when I have already specifically informed you that I only know what is written in books from what you people 'tell me'?

Also, why do you only 'look' and 'see' things from a very tiny and small perspective of things?

Why is that, to you, only what that just another human being named "jesus christ" said is important to you?

I just wrote what I have been told is written in the bible. Who actually said what 'we' will never ever know. For all you know "jesus christ" might not have stated absolutely anything that is in the bible. Whoever the human beings/ who wrote the bible could have just said, God said 'this or that', or, "jesus christ" said 'this or that', and all of it could be a figment of that person/s imagination, obviously.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:17 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:12 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:02 am ..and, what part of the below is NOT instructing followers of Islam to kill in the name of Allah?

(Quran 2:191-193)
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

you, obviously, do not want to have 'a discussion'.

you, obviously, want to keep believing that the word 'kill' means and is referring to 'human bodies' and not to what that word is actually referring to, exactly.

So, once again,if you want to interpret things in one way only here, then, please, by all means keep doing so.

Keep 'believing' what you want to here "attofishpi". Obviously you will have absolutely nothing at all to worry about because it is only the 'non believers' who are to be 'killed' right?

ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE A MORON NOT WORTHY OF INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION.

So, here 'we' can clearly see once more, that when these people, back then, had to ever 'look' within "themselves", to actually find absolutely anything that could back up and support 'their beliefs and claims', they would very quickly run away.

This one, actually, believes that its own very personal and very shallow and limited views and beliefs are the only true and right ones existing, and if absolutely anyone does not follow along with that tiny perspective of things, then it is 'the other' who does not want to have 'a discussion', nor even a so-claimed 'intellectual discussion'.

It is like these people were not even aware of what is even actually involved within 'a discussion'.

In just about every thread, if not all of them, what can be clearly seen is that the purpose for these posters being here is never ever to actually have a discussion to learn something, but to just 'tell' others what 'the truth' is, only.

These people believe so strongly in their views they would, literally, want to argue and/or fight 'till the death' over them. But, when they are shown to be 'wrong', or not yet 'clear', like above here, then they, instead, 'run away'.