Philosophy Now Forum

"if the will behind the action is not free, there is no moral responsibility..."

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:04 am Free to do everything physically possible, and free to do everything physically impossible. All of it.

So if someone isn't free to do everything physically possible and physically impossible, they're not morally responsible, right? Is that what you think?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:04 am Free to do everything physically possible, and free to do everything physically impossible. All of it.

Do you know what impossible means?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:13 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmTo me those terms are not remotely synonyms. One could be determinist and optimistic and fight against tyranny. One could, sure, be a determinist and have pretty much any attitude. Cynicism is an attitude about life. Determinsm is a set of beliefs in Metaphysics.

Empiricists can be happy or sad or optimistic or.....
Deontologists can be cynical or Pollyanas.

It's a kind of category error.

You don't see the link between Cynicism and Determinism? Cynicism seems to follow Deterministic beliefs. Because what 'power' does a Determinist really have in life, when he or she has no significant control over society or existence, or even him/herself? She is Fated to be as she is, Destined to do as she does. If she is well off in life, lives in luxury, then she attributes it to Luck and Chance. If she is less fortunate, or depressed while rich, then it's "out of her control".

1) again, one can be cynical and believe in free will or determinism. I can see ways one might react the way you assume to determinism. I can. But in life, the determinists I meet run the same range of optimisms to pessimisms, and I see absolutely no connection between belief in determinism and reduced support for democracy, freedom from rules and so on. Many if not most of the people who believe in free will seem to follow religious rules or think one should even if they don't. I don't see either free will or determinism have clear effects on how much political and social freedom people want and strive for.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmI never said you chose for someone. Presumably people choose themselves. It's your belief. You talked about freeing the will. This to me means it isn't free at one point in time and then someone chooses to free their own wills.

Yes, I asked you and the general audience, how a will becomes 'free'. How the will is freed? From what? To do, what? I'm asking you too, specifically.

OK, now you start with 'yes.' Before it was as if I put words in your mouth.

In any case, I wouldn't use free will in this context, but rather freedom. How can one become more free?
Well, there is a lot written about how on a political level. So, I'll focus very quickly how one can on a more self-relation level: Most belief systems want you to be split against yourself. Question that and don't go along with that.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmRight, but again. When you mention freeing the will, it implies at one point it is not free then later it is. It seems from what you wrote above you see people 'settling' and this leads to them not have free wills. Later they can free their will (again.)

These aren't constant throughout life, you do realize this?

Sure, if we are talking about freedom and not free will there are all sorts o f things that affect this.

Does an infant have a large or small amount of freedom? Does a 100-year-old elder have large or small freedom? No, what people consider 'free' generally correlates to a Mature, Adult human being. A person is 'freer' at the height of their physical, mental, spiritual power.

Correct?

Sure, again, it seems like my original paraphrase was not off.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmIf this is what you believe, then this isn't in the right forum. People who believe in free will in a metaphysics sense do not think that your will can be unfree now but free later.

This is not true, and pretty sure your statement is a logical fallacy.

Well, let me know when you know and can share.

Why do you link metaphysics to an unchanging 'free' state of will?

I don't use the phrase 'free state of will' so I don't know what that refers to

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 10:37 amHow have I clipped my wings? Please be specific or mention some thing about my life.

There's no example of soaring: For example, how are you soaring in a way I am not? How do you soar in a way that no one has before

Because you suggested the constraint first.

Where did I suggest constraint? I noticed you talking about freeing the will, which seemed to indicate a non-free state and then when you free the will a free state. My grammar was not good in the first sentence. It should have read, so people are not free until they release their will

You suggested constraint in your very first sentence response, that I "choose freedom" as-if I am the qualifier.

I don't know what you mean here. Show me where I used the word constraint. And again, tell me in what way you soar and I do not and how you know this?
Of course we are free to make shit up about people, but when asked, you might as well show that it made some sense. Just cause you're sure I must be what you fantasize doean't mean very much.

Why do you presume it's up to me?

My first sentence was grammatically poor. It should have read something like So, people's will are not free until they choose to free them. or So, your will isn't free until you choose to free it.It was meant as a conclusion implied by your question. Mainly about does one have free will as certain times and not others. Can one as an adult give up free will. If yes, then it has to do with freedom, not metaphysical free will.

How do you know you are soaring and I am not? And specifics, what does that mean to you 'soaring' with examples of when and how you've soared?

A prisoner is in a jail cell, for a crime he didn't commit. He wishes he were free. Is his desire, the basis of and for his free-will?

It could be a kind of freedom and it could lead to his or her freedom, sure.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmUm, you're just making stuff up about somone you don't know.

I'm making up what you've already said?

Show me.

I know that every single human being who has ever existed, or will exist, uses themselves first as an example of what they believe to be free or unfree. So Free-Will is really an exposition of your spirit or soul. It's almost like a Confession. People confess to their Restraints, Limitations, Inabilites. They do not do the same for traits they Desire, for what they Want and Will.

What restraint did I confess to?
Are you always making assumptions about people? Don't you have some other more worthwhile freedom.
I notice you don't quote something that demonstrates I don't soar. I notice you give no examples of how you soar?

I just see vague abstractions. For all I know you sit in apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I don't even know what you think soaring is.

But for some reason you are sure you can judge and dismiss me and that you must be soaring in ways I am not. You're talking out of your ass.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 10:37 amNo, that doesn't describe me well at all. I am not a moral realist, as a start. And I am a huge fan of freedom, both on the political and personal levels.

What do you do that shows how free you are ?

Hallucinate stuff about other people?

I guess I've done that on occasion, but it's not a source of pride.

Yes, call it a Hallucination if you like. I've only just begun.

You haven't given a single example of you soaring. You haven't given a single example of what you dream of achieving, some future soaring. You made claims about me, but did nothing to back them up.

You haven't clarified what YOU are talking about.

I have time constraints. Take em as you get em. I guess my free-will isn't Absolute then is it? I still have some time transcendence to do...

Convenient time constraints. You managed to repeat claims about me that you have no evidence for. You managed to write a bunch of abstract stuff. After three responses you managed to write a lot of words but not to give a single example of what you mean by soaring and what you have done that is soaring.

You just seem like a bluff.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:19 amSo if someone isn't free to do everything physically possible and physically impossible, they're not morally responsible, right? Is that what you think?

Exactly.

So will you now admit that you are not morally responsible for yourself?

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:27 amDo you know what impossible means?

Yes, but I want to hear your definition. Go ahead.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:53 am

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:19 amSo if someone isn't free to do everything physically possible and physically impossible, they're not morally responsible, right? Is that what you think?

Exactly.

So will you now admit that you are not morally responsible for yourself?

Why would you thinking the quoted words lead to ME admitting something like that? It's one non sequitur after another from you.

YOU thinking the quoted words should lead YOU to admit that YOU aren't responsible because YOU aren't free to, for example, turn into a mouse right now.

What you think has nothing to do with me though

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:53 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:27 amDo you know what impossible means?

Yes, but I want to hear your definition. Go ahead.

It's your thread, you go ahead.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:29 am1) again, one can be cynical and believe in free will or determinism. I can see ways one might react the way you assume to determinism. I can. But in life, the determinists I meet run the same range of optimisms to pessimisms, and I see absolutely no connection between belief in determinism and reduced support for democracy, freedom from rules and so on. Many if not most of the people who believe in free will seem to follow religious rules or think one should even if they don't. I don't see either free will or determinism have clear effects on how much political and social freedom people want and strive for.

Okay, so here you link the 'Compatible' views of free-will line up with how most people consider religion or their religious beliefs.

Why would that be the case? Is free-will natural, or supernatural?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:29 amOK, now you start with 'yes.' Before it was as if I put words in your mouth.

In any case, I wouldn't use free will in this context, but rather freedom. How can one become more free?
Well, there is a lot written about how on a political level. So, I'll focus very quickly how one can on a more self-relation level: Most belief systems want you to be split against yourself. Question that and don't go along with that.

I agree, and the first restriction you went to is Politics.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:29 amSure, if we are talking about freedom and not free will there are all sorts o f things that affect this.

Why isn't freedom and will necessarily linked? What relevance is freedom, except to you first subjectively?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:29 amI don't know what you mean here. Show me where I used the word constraint. And again, tell me in what way you soar and I do not and how you know this?
Of course we are free to make shit up about people, but when asked, you might as well show that it made some sense. Just cause you're sure I must be what you fantasize doean't mean very much.

Why do you presume it's up to me?

My first sentence was grammatically poor. It should have read something like So, people's will are not free until they choose to free them. or So, your will isn't free until you choose to free it.It was meant as a conclusion implied by your question. Mainly about does one have free will as certain times and not others. Can one as an adult give up free will. If yes, then it has to do with freedom, not metaphysical free will.

How do you know you are soaring and I am not? And specifics, what does that mean to you 'soaring' with examples of when and how you've soared?

You're missing the point here. It's about what 'belief' in free-will, that you are free or not, does to a person, does to their mind, does to their body. This can be simplified. Simply ask yourself generally, "am I free or not"? Yes is positive. No is negative. Your answer is your belief or disbelief. Your answer is critical because free-will is a belief that affects everything else.

Do you believe that people make Choices? Do you believe that they are responsible for those Choices?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:29 amIt could be a kind of freedom and it could lead to his or her freedom, sure.

I'm making up what you've already said?

Show me.

I know that every single human being who has ever existed, or will exist, uses themselves first as an example of what they believe to be free or unfree. So Free-Will is really an exposition of your spirit or soul. It's almost like a Confession. People confess to their Restraints, Limitations, Inabilites. They do not do the same for traits they Desire, for what they Want and Will.

What restraint did I confess to?
Are you always making assumptions about people? Don't you have some other more worthwhile freedom.
I notice you don't quote something that demonstrates I don't soar. I notice you give no examples of how you soar?

I just see vague abstractions. For all I know you sit in apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I don't even know what you think soaring is.

But for some reason you are sure you can judge and dismiss me and that you must be soaring in ways I am not. You're talking out of your ass.

You said this:

"So, people's wills are not free until you choose to free them. Again, wrong subforum. You're not talking about the free will discussed in Metaphysics."

Your interpretation is that "I chose" to free them, and that it is not free-will metaphysically. That's your response! Where did I say anything about "me choosing for them"??

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 10:37 amNo, that doesn't describe me well at all. I am not a moral realist, as a start. And I am a huge fan of freedom, both on the political and personal levels.

What do you do that shows how free you are ?

Hallucinate stuff about other people?

I guess I've done that on occasion, but it's not a source of pride.

Yes, call it a Hallucination if you like. I've only just begun.

You haven't given a single example of you soaring. You haven't given a single example of what you dream of achieving, some future soaring. You made claims about me, but did nothing to back them up.

You haven't clarified what YOU are talking about.

I have time constraints. Take em as you get em. I guess my free-will isn't Absolute then is it? I still have some time transcendence to do...

Convenient time constraints. You managed to repeat claims about me that you have no evidence for. You managed to write a bunch of abstract stuff. After three responses you managed to write a lot of words but not to give a single example of what you mean by soaring and what you have done that is soaring.

You just seem like a bluff.

For starters, you claim to value freedom, but show no demonstration to hint at support of a free-will. Why is that?

What am I hoping to accomplish? Maybe a little bit of philosophy, maybe a little clarity. I like to gain knowledge, wisdom, insight into the world. If I can 'free' a mind here or there along the way, then that's worthy of doing too. I only say this because of its relevance to the topic, and the belief by which people either believe, or do not believe, they have a free-will.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:57 amWhy would you thinking the quoted words lead to ME admitting something like that? It's one non sequitur after another from you.

Because how would freedom be limited???

I'm using YOUR rationale to finish the argument that you objected to!

How do you disagree with what Imp said? You need a free-will, to be morally responsible. Or are you merely pretending to disagree??

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:00 pmIt's your thread, you go ahead.

It is my thread...but you interrupted.

So your interruption merits a justification. You go ahead.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:15 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:57 amWhy would you thinking the quoted words lead to ME admitting something like that? It's one non sequitur after another from you.

Because how would freedom be limited???

I'm using YOUR rationale to finish the argument that you objected to!

Really? Can you quote my rationale? And what argument I objected to?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:15 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:00 pmIt's your thread, you go ahead.

It is my thread...but you interrupted.

So your interruption merits a justification. You go ahead.

No.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 9:14 amI'm not exactly a determinist either, but the problem with this short, succinct quote is that the word "free" is ambiguous. Free from what? Or alternatively, free TO what?

This was your disagreement with Imp's statement, "ambiguity".

I then expanded the "problem". Freedom...relative to everything. But, why is that a problem to you? Just add in literally any context you imagine, and it makes sense. Just plug in any degree of freedom. Lifting weights. Flapping wings. Swimming against a current. Teleporting throughout the universe. Any freedom.

Your refusal to plug in a context is the real "problem". Why hesitate?

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:18 pmNo.

Then your interruption is quite rude.

Impossible is impossible to define, similar to how freedom is impossible to define. Because you'd be placing limits on limitless concepts. It's paradoxical.