Philosophy Now Forum

Walker wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:26 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:13 am

Walker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:13 am
To change, you first need to lose the caps, drop the questions, and forget how to be stubborn.

There are MANY ways to CHANGE.

That's right, and out of the many ways, those ways listed are your changes that can be independently verified, and they're so easy to do once the stubbornness has been left behind, in the dustbin of the past. Such a shedding will have results you have yet to know.

What are you talking about and referring to, EXACTLY?

Well, as usual: a thread with a clearly laid out position plus support, solid responses with counterpoints, much achievement of common definitions of terms and a fine exploration of reincarnation. We may not have all agreed, but what a prolegomenon for the coming discourse!

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:34 am Well, as usual: a thread with a clearly laid out position plus support, solid responses with counterpoints, much achievement of common definitions of terms and a fine exploration of reincarnation. We may not have all agreed, but what a prolegomenon for the coming discourse!

Yikes. Well, some folks want other folks to do all that there heavy lifting, so they can sit back and pick at something other than the nose, don't you knows.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:01 pm I've been thinking about the possibility of reincarnation, and after much deliberation (one minute and twenty three seconds) I have concluded the notion to be utterly bonkers, and that's that.

According to some Googled statistics, there are approximately 3,904,727,342 females on the planet at this present moment (let's round that up to 4 billion).

So (and for the sake of this thought experiment), let's assume that 2 billion of those females are able the bear children right now.

Now, imagine giving all of those two billion females fertility drugs to where they each become pregnant with quintuplets (5 babies)...



In which case, it is plausible that in nine months from now (in 2023), 10 billion new babies will be born, thus increasing the earth's human population to around 18 billion.

Now, let's imagine that those 10 billion new babies (via some DNA manipulating shenanigans) were all females.

With that in mind, let's move ahead about 18 years (to around 2040/41) and repeat the process of giving all 10 billion of those now 18-year-old females fertility drugs causing them too to give birth to quintuplets.

This, of course, means that in around 2041, 50 billion new humans (again, all females as per this thought experiment) will be added to the population.

So, in 2041 we now have approximately 60 billion females on the planet to which we can again repeat the fertility inducing process in another 18 years, at which time...

(somewhere around 2060/61, to be exact - a mere 38 years from now)

...the population could rise to 360 billion humans.

Now, of course, this is not going to happen (and Thomas Malthus is spinning in his grave right now), but the point is that it's plausible in thought form.

Okay then, with the above in mind, the question is, where are those approximately 352 billion human souls hanging out right now in 2022?

And furthermore, according to Wiki:

In the 40-plus years of his life after enlightenment, Gautama Buddha is said to have recounted almost 554 past life stories, (called Jataka tales) of his prior existences.

In which case, why would the Buddha (or any other human, for that matter) be allowed to hog-up so many earthly bodies in consecutive (almost immediate) incarnations when, according to my wild (yet plausible) thought experiment, there could be a near infinity of other souls who also need those bodies in order to advance?

And lastly,...

...why in the world would something that a group of mad genetic scientists do here on earth have such a profound and instantaneous impact on what that vast number of other souls are doing in that higher context of reality?...



Cartoon captions:

Bardo Boy: "What do you mean I have got to go back right away?...I just got here!"

Dispatcher of Souls: "There's no time to argue! The Earth's population is going to double in a few years, and we're out of souls up here. I need six billion right now just to keep up! By the way, you have 10 seconds..."

Bardo Boy: "But I haven't even reflected on my last incarnation!"

Dispatcher of Souls: "...6 - 5 - 4..."

Bardo Boy: "Oh brother!...now what?"

_______

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:43 pm...

That’s like the story of the city frog and the country frog.

The country frog lives in his predictable dimension of time and linear sequencing that applies to all things including theories of souls, and this is inside of a well that he calls vast, with well-defined boundary walls.

When he visits his city cousin who lives next to the ocean, his inability to fit that new, unbounded dimension into the restricting limitations of all that he has ever known, causes his head to explode.

Thus, the dilemma.

Walker wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:02 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:43 pm...

That’s like the story of the city frog and the country frog.

The country frog lives in his predictable dimension of time and linear sequencing that applies to all things including theories of souls, and this is inside of a well that he calls vast, with well-defined boundary walls.

When he visits his city cousin who lives next to the ocean, his inability to fit that new, unbounded dimension into the restricting limitations of all that he has ever known, causes his head to explode.

Thus, the dilemma.

Instead of regaling me with some lame parable as if you were a gooroo talking to some metaphysical neophyte, how about you provide some logical answers to the questions I proposed?
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:05 pm Instead of regaling me with some lame parable as if you were a gooroo talking to some metaphysical neophyte, how about you provide some logical answers to the questions I proposed?
_______

Pick one, and say please. Then we'll judge the importance of your need to hear.

_______

When the ultimate truth of reality and of our eternal destiny is finally revealed to us at the moment of death, then the purpose of human concepts such as...

• Reincarnation.
  Hinduism.
  Buddhism.
  Judaism.
  Christianity.
  Islam.
  Atheism.
  Materialism.
  etc., etc,...

...will be summed-up in one simple image:


_______

The contradictions inherent in the idea of ​​metempsychosis derive from the same "truths", taken for granted, that underpin our interpretation of the world.

These "indisputable truths" are:

- the becoming of being

- the individual self

By being we mean what inhabits the present. That is, what is here now, in this instant.
This "being" becomes in time.

The individual self, on the other hand, is that which is independent of the passage of time. He remains himself throughout life. And we would like him to stay even after...

The concepts of being and becoming make sense of one another. But by themselves they cannot exist.
A being, that is, what is now, that was not becoming would be nonsense.
And the same a becoming without anything that remained: it would be the becoming of what?

While the individual self would like to ignore becoming. That is, do not depend on the very foundation of existence!

Regardless of these contradictions, metempsychosis is invented.
Which, however, is only an invention based on questionable truths.
An invention also due to the inability to face the horror of the One.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:41 pm

_______

That’s helpful in determing the appropriateness of response to any question caused by your confusion. However, it also adds another requirement that you must meet, before your demands are judged to be worthwhile questions. Let’s start with what we have, which is where we’re at.

What we have is the gooroo tale, and your understanding of the gooroo tale. Your expressed understanding can head off at the pass any erroneous assumptions that I might make about the receptivity of your non-neophytical ears that would likely cause a needless wasting of my time, effort, energy, and interest in answering the one question out of questions that you need to ask, and all of that activity would be transferred away from this finite well of life force, and into the action of inappropriately responding to your level interest, and that really does no one any good now, does it.

After all that activity, if your current postings are indicative of your future depth of dialogue, then that would effectively leave the truthful side of the conversation up a creek, without a paddle so to speak. Keep in mind that there are no wrong interpretations of the gooroo tale, there is only your interpretation to assess, after you contribute it to the well of wisdom.

Should you feel the need, take your time and elevate. I'm mourning The Phillies loss.

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:43 pm Okay then, with the above in mind, the question is, where are those approximately 352 billion human souls hanging out right now in 2022?

There could be many universes/or planets or this universe is infinite, so souls there are always souls moving in and out.
Or new souls can be created, so, older souls move forward in time and others are introduced. For many lives or forever forward.
Probably other possible solutions/guesses.

[/size]In which case, why would the Buddha (or any other human, for that matter) be allowed to hog-up so many earthly bodies in consecutive (almost immediate) incarnations when, according to my wild (yet plausible) thought experiment, there could be a near infinity of other souls who also need those bodies in order to advance?

Cause he was a good boy and the universe rewards good boys and girls. Because other people pop up elsewhere. Because the pattern isn't fair, but it is. I am sure there can be other answers to this.

And lastly,...

...why in the world would something that a group of mad genetic scientists do here on earth have such a profound and instantaneous impact on what that vast number of other souls are doing in that higher context of reality?...

How would we know what caused what? And it certainly doesn't take mad scientists to cause this problem or 'problem'. China's one child policy or even just one very fertile family could change things for one soul and make it all unfair or pressured, though on a tinier scale.

Or, it doesn't cause problems because of one of the potential solutions mentioned already.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:05 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:43 pm Okay then, with the above in mind, the question is, where are those approximately 352 billion human souls hanging out right now in 2022?

There could be many universes/or planets...

Who or what created these many universes and fantastically ordered planets upon which incorporeal souls can carry on the process of diving in-and-out of corporeal bodies?

Was it (is it) some sort of joint effort orchestrated by all souls in existence? How?

Indeed, if such is a possibility,...

(and setting aside the ridiculous nonsense that the order of the universe is a product of chance)

...then what aspect of our united souls grabbed hold of the fabric of reality and shaped it into this...



...and this...



And, furthermore, for what purpose?

In other words, what is the end goal of reincarnation?

Of course, the standard response to that question is to put an end to the trap of "samsara" via "moksha."

However, what I am asking is that even if you needed a billion years to cycle through a million incarnations in order to achieve moksha, then what?

I mean, a billion years is not even a grain of sand to eternity.

In other words, eternity would still loom before you in a vision of endlessness that defies comprehension.

In which case, not only must we wonder what context of reality we would be existing in at that point,...

(presumably in an "incorporeal" form)

...but also, what would be our purpose for existing from that point forward?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:05 am ...or this universe is infinite, so souls there are always souls moving in and out.

The only "universe" we are familiar with is an expanding, "bubble like" phenomenon that (allegedly) appears to have begun approximately 13.8 billion years ago from a tiny (seed-like) kernel of highly compressed matter....



Thus, from our current perspective (inside of the bubble), the universe is finite, not infinite.

And I say "seed-like" because it (this "Ultimate Seed") contained the encapsulated potential to sprout and grow into what seems to be a natural, self-sustaining, autonomous entity whose spherical body...



...is made up of everything we call "reality," including our minds.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:05 am Or new souls can be created, and others are introduced.

Got any guesses as to how new souls are created? If so, I'd love to hear them.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:05 am ...so, older souls move forward in time...

Move forward in time?

What do you mean by that?

Where in time do they move to?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:05 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:43 pm In which case, why would the Buddha (or any other human, for that matter) be allowed to hog-up so many earthly bodies in consecutive (almost immediate) incarnations when, according to my wild (yet plausible) thought experiment, there could be a near infinity of other souls who also need those bodies in order to advance?

Cause he was a good boy and the universe rewards good boys and girls.

Now you're just being silly.

Furthermore, according to the standard take on reincarnation, "good boys and girls" are rewarded with release from the suffering of corporeal existence, and not with endless incarnations back into the fray.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:05 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:43 pm And lastly,...

...why in the world would something that a group of mad genetic scientists do here on earth have such a profound and instantaneous impact on what that vast number of other souls are doing in that higher context of reality?...

How would we know what caused what?

In my initial post in this thread, I created a fanciful thought experiment where in the span of a mere 38 years, humans (via genetic manipulation) caused the need for 352 billion human souls to be drawn (extricated) from what is presumed to be a higher (more important and substantial) context of reality, down into this lower context of materiality and suffering.

In other words, we're talking about a cosmic version of what seems to be the "tail wagging the dog" situation in that those higher (incorporeal) souls would have no choice but to drop whatever they may be doing in that higher context of reality and dive back (en masse) into this nasty lower one.

So, the "cause" of the mass extraction of souls from that higher dimension of reality would be obvious.

Clearly, we are both doing a lot of speculating here.

And please don't get me wrong, for I am not flatly ruling out all of your good suggestions. However, setting all of that aside, again I ask,...

...if after achieving moksha, one still has eternity looming before them in a vision of endlessness that defies comprehension,...

...then what?

I mean, what ultimate and (hopefully) ever-evolving and fruitful purpose could one possibly have if, indeed, one is in possession of eternal life?

Got any thoughts or guesses on that issue?
_______

"seeds" when, and if, 'you' stop asking questions from such a closed perspective, then 'you' can start seeing and receiving what the actual Truth is. But what 'you' are doing here is just showing what you BELIEVE is true, which is obviously False, Wrong, and Incorrect.

Look, if you want to BELIEVE and CLAIM some things are true, then I suggest 'you' obtain actual irrefutable Facts for them first.

ALL of the questions 'you' ask could be answered in an IRREFUTABLE WAY, but because 'you' are so closed off by your own BELIEFS 'you' are clearly NOT YET ready for these answers.

nah it's more like this i think. there are planets elsewhere in the universe upon which nearly identical circumstances have unfolded and developed, including linear chains of causality that have produced identical trivial details like 'you' and even the hat your wear. the number of yous we couldn't know, but there are problems with infinite yous at once unless we have an eternally recurring universe that's cyclical in some way that explains away entropy.

however the problem would be each you doesn't have consecutive experience with the other yous and can only experience themselves one at a time.

once you learn how to leap you can hack into one of the other yous on a distant planet and have their experiences, tho.

as far as immortality, it's true but it might as well not be cuz again all the yous only ever have the experience of living once no matter how many times they've lived and will live again as new universes evolve.

ironically this deal is even worse cuz it means we get to know and suffer the fact that we're mortal and will dissappear into nothingness when we eventually die, innumerable times over.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:30 pm nah it's more like this i think. there are planets elsewhere in the universe upon which nearly identical circumstances have unfolded and developed, including linear chains of causality that have produced identical trivial details like 'you' and even the hat your wear. the number of yous we couldn't know, but there are problems with infinite yous at once unless we have an eternally recurring universe that's cyclical in some way that explains away entropy.

however the problem would be each you doesn't have consecutive experience with the other yous and can only experience themselves one at a time.

once you learn how to leap you can hack into one of the other yous on a distant planet and have their experiences, tho.

as far as immortality, it's true but it might as well not be cuz again all the yous only ever have the experience of living once no matter how many times they've lived and will live again as new universes evolve.

ironically this deal is even worse cuz it means we get to know and suffer the fact that we're mortal and will dissappear into nothingness when we eventually die, innumerable times over.

Is this what 'you' really think "promethean75", or are you just joking here?