Philosophy Now Forum

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:43 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:41 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:35 pm

Hallucinogens were specifically used for spirit quests. Ancient people didn't need them to know they were part of nature.

Leave out your juvenile 'spirit' and 'magic' references and do a bit of real research. 'Nature' is not 'super nature'. They are opposites.

I never said anything about super nature. Magic is natural. I think it's you who needs to do some research.

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:35 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:28 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:25 pm

I think modern society insulates people from the natural energies of nature, made worse in more recent times by the flooding of the air with artificial electro-magnetic waves. But the natural energies are still there, in certain places.

Crop circles are definitely interesting, and perhaps some of the earlier ones were naturally formed. They were always close to ancient centres of power.

FFS. And you probably like to describe yourself as a 'spiritual' person. 'Gullible' is not a synonym for 'spiritual'.

What you seem to be referring to is the connection that everything in the universe has with everything else in the universe. It's thought that early hominids felt this by consumung psilocybin mushrooms, something that very old cultures still do ritualistically.
Unfortunately their scientific study was halted by propaganda perpetuated by kristian fuckwits and the arms industry at a time when the anti-war movement was huge and driven mostly by young people partaking in the delights of psychedelics like magic mushrooms. It's difficult to want to kill people when you feel a deep connection with and goodwill towards them.

ps. That's science, not 'magic'.

Hallucinogens were specifically used for spirit quests. Ancient people didn't need them to know they were part of nature.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:47 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:43 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:41 pm

Leave out your juvenile 'spirit' and 'magic' references and do a bit of real research. 'Nature' is not 'super nature'. They are opposites.

I never said anything about super nature. Magic is natural. I think it's you who needs to do some research.

Nature is nature.
People used to believe that science was magic, and apparently there are a lot out there who still do

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:56 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:47 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:43 pm

I never said anything about super nature. Magic is natural. I think it's you who needs to do some research.

Nature is nature.
People used to believe that science was magic, and apparently there are a lot out there who still do

Did people ever believe science was magic, or is that a modern myth to make us feel all smug about ourselves?

What *is* the case, however, is that many of the greatest scientists, such as Newton, were also practitioners of magic. So perhaps we've got it wrong, and what people actually thought was that magic is science.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:55 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:35 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:28 pm

FFS. And you probably like to describe yourself as a 'spiritual' person. 'Gullible' is not a synonym for 'spiritual'.

What you seem to be referring to is the connection that everything in the universe has with everything else in the universe. It's thought that early hominids felt this by consumung psilocybin mushrooms, something that very old cultures still do ritualistically.
Unfortunately their scientific study was halted by propaganda perpetuated by kristian fuckwits and the arms industry at a time when the anti-war movement was huge and driven mostly by young people partaking in the delights of psychedelics like magic mushrooms. It's difficult to want to kill people when you feel a deep connection with and goodwill towards them.

ps. That's science, not 'magic'.

Hallucinogens were specifically used for spirit quests. Ancient people didn't need them to know they were part of nature.

So are you positing that "magic" can be explained/measured using the tools of science--electromagnetism for example? If so, then why call it "magic"? Why not group it under phenomena that can be scientifically investigated? If I secretly palm a magnet to make a piece of iron seem to hover in mid-air and claim I have powers I do not, then I'm not really doing "magic", I'm deceiving others into thinking I have some kind of ability that I do not in truth have without the use of things with perfectly explainable physical properties. that's what many would call evil and what I would call deceitful and I think you're better off not associating with such people who would seek to misrepresent the truth in order to give themselves a psychological advantage over you. But it's obviously your choice what or who to believe.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:59 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:56 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:47 pm

Nature is nature.
People used to believe that science was magic, and apparently there are a lot out there who still do

Did people ever believe science was magic, or is that a modern myth to make us feel all smug about ourselves?

What *is* the case, however, is that many of the greatest scientists, such as Newton, were also practitioners of magic. So perhaps we've got it wrong, and what people actually thought was that magic is science.

You really need to stop using the word 'magic' unless you are going to define EXACTLY what you are meaning when you use it. You can't just say vaguely 'an electromagnetic crackly thingy I sometime think I feel when I walk in a forest' or some such.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:55 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:35 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:28 pm

FFS. And you probably like to describe yourself as a 'spiritual' person. 'Gullible' is not a synonym for 'spiritual'.

What you seem to be referring to is the connection that everything in the universe has with everything else in the universe. It's thought that early hominids felt this by consumung psilocybin mushrooms, something that very old cultures still do ritualistically.
Unfortunately their scientific study was halted by propaganda perpetuated by kristian fuckwits and the arms industry at a time when the anti-war movement was huge and driven mostly by young people partaking in the delights of psychedelics like magic mushrooms. It's difficult to want to kill people when you feel a deep connection with and goodwill towards them.

ps. That's science, not 'magic'.

Hallucinogens were specifically used for spirit quests. Ancient people didn't need them to know they were part of nature.

So are you positing that "magic" can be explained/measured using the tools of science--electromagnetism for example? If so, then why call it "magic"? Why not group it under phenomena that can be scientifically investigated? If I secretly palm a magnet to make a piece of iron seem to hover in mid-air and claim I have powers I do not, then I'm not really doing "magic", I'm deceiving others into thinking I have some kind of ability that I do not in truth have without the use of things with perfectly explainable physical properties. that's what many would call evil and what I would call deceitful and I think you're better off not associating with such people who would seek to misrepresent the truth in order to give themselves a psychological advantage over you. But it's obviously your choice what or who to believe.

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:01 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:59 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:56 pm

Did people ever believe science was magic, or is that a modern myth to make us feel all smug about ourselves?

What *is* the case, however, is that many of the greatest scientists, such as Newton, were also practitioners of magic. So perhaps we've got it wrong, and what people actually thought was that magic is science.

You really need to stop using the word 'magic' unless you are going to define EXACTLY what you are meaning when you use it. You can't just say vaguely 'an electromagnetic crackly thingy I sometime think I feel when I walk in a forest' or some such.

If I could define it exactly, I wouldn't need to ask about it.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:03 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:01 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:59 pm

You really need to stop using the word 'magic' unless you are going to define EXACTLY what you are meaning when you use it. You can't just say vaguely 'an electromagnetic crackly thingy I sometime think I feel when I walk in a forest' or some such.

If I could define it exactly, I wouldn't need to ask about it.

You've been given quite a few answers but you don't seem to want any.

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:05 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:03 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:01 pm

If I could define it exactly, I wouldn't need to ask about it.

You've been given quite a few answers but you don't seem to want any.

I tend to reject answers from people who haven't researched the subject.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:07 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:05 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:03 pm

You've been given quite a few answers but you don't seem to want any.

I tend to reject answers from people who haven't researched the subject.

Researched 'what' exactly? You refuse to even define the word you insist on using

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:08 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:07 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:05 pm

I tend to reject answers from people who haven't researched the subject.

Researched 'what' exactly? You refuse to even define the word you insist on using

I have already made clear the sort of areas I have in mind when using the term.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:11 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:08 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:07 pm

Researched 'what' exactly? You refuse to even define the word you insist on using

I have already made clear the sort of areas I have in mind when using the term.

You are clearly a hopeless case and are no more interested in genuine debate than a creationist.

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:00 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:55 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:35 pm

Hallucinogens were specifically used for spirit quests. Ancient people didn't need them to know they were part of nature.

So are you positing that "magic" can be explained/measured using the tools of science--electromagnetism for example? If so, then why call it "magic"? Why not group it under phenomena that can be scientifically investigated? If I secretly palm a magnet to make a piece of iron seem to hover in mid-air and claim I have powers I do not, then I'm not really doing "magic", I'm deceiving others into thinking I have some kind of ability that I do not in truth have without the use of things with perfectly explainable physical properties. that's what many would call evil and what I would call deceitful and I think you're better off not associating with such people who would seek to misrepresent the truth in order to give themselves a psychological advantage over you. But it's obviously your choice what or who to believe.

It's true that the term magic has been debased by charlatans, but that is not the fault of magic. There are also, for example, a lot of fake medical practitioners around, especially in former times. Should we therefore reject medicine?

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:14 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:11 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:08 pm

I have already made clear the sort of areas I have in mind when using the term.

You are clearly a hopeless case and are no more interested in genuine debate than a creationist.

I'm not the one being dogmatic.