Philosophy Now Forum

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:09 am

Ya, nice post Iwannaplato.

Pff. A soul and how to contemplate what it IS?

I used to think that (since knowing an intelligence exists at the backbone to everything)..that perhaps there is something material within our being that gets repositioned, re-implanted (reincarnation)...

I guess I still do, but I think a lot about our POV within REALITY...that, perhaps in a similar way to how a pointer works within a computer program, that there indeed is this link (pointer/place-holder) that can recursively (when we die) drop off and be re-assigned to another material body.

Just some food for thought Harbal

I'm sure there are countless speculative possibilities of what a sould might be, and what might happen to it after the physical death of the body, but how on earth do you find a reason to think any particular one might be the case?

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:25 am Thanks for that. I suppose we all try to make sense of existence somehow, and while I couldn't really describe my way of doing it, I can say there is nothing "spiritual" about it; I'm not that sort of person. Even so, I can respect what you and seeds have to say because you both seem to have figured things out for yourselves, rather than adopting an off-the-shelf set of beliefs.

I have never experienced anything in my life that has led to my considering the possibility of the existence of anything that could be called a soul; other than metaphorically, of course. Nothing has ever happened to me to make me wonder if there might actually be a spiritual realm of any kind. Maybe souls really do exist, and I just don't happen to have one.

That last comment doesn't quite fit with any of my models of reality.

Otherwise, I hear you. If you were curious there might be things you could do to increase your chances of having those experiences, but I understand this may not be the case...and I've gotten the impression it isn't.

So, there we are, each moving forward as best we can.

One topic I've thought of bringing up to try to bridge the gap in such situations is
heuristics vs. things in relation to epistemology.

Here we have the topic of 'soul'. It could be God or transpersons or ghosts or microaggressions or love or the self, in the sense that these are all nouns.

Many people think of beliefs in terms of nouns. Is X real? The epistemology gets put on table. Demonstrate X exists or X is real. Fair enough. And certainly with the history of some nouns and the role they've played in all sorts of nastiness...well, fair enough.

But often people who expect a great deal of rigor about nouns may not notice how their have less rigor about their own heuristics (or their own nouns, for that matter). I am not thinking of you since you react very gently to most nouns and people, if skeptically.

What do I mean by heuristics here? Well, really it could be anything but it could be in ideas about parenting, choosing the right candidate to vote for, how to get along with others, how to approach the opposite sex, how to be a good worker, how to decide who to challenge and who not to, when to gossip, all sorts of moral applications.

Rules (conscious or unconscious or mixes of both) that guide is in life.

I think people often don't expect (from themselves) as much rigor as they expect others to have around nouns existing as they do around their own heuristics working or being good.

But these heuristics have all sorts of local and non-local effects on the lives of people and ourselves.

Obviously, even if I am correct, none of this demonstrates souls (or communities) exist. Nor is it an argument saying...yeah, so don't criticize my nouns.

It's more like Hey, wait, we're all doing stuff based on best guesses and intuition. And our rigor as far as important stuff, related to how we act and think, may be as intuition-based as that other person who believes in X.

And I think what we're concerned about with nouns is not so much does person B believe X [noun] exists, but what does this lead to in their actions and attitudes.

Then further, yes, it may relate to having very different experiences.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:14 am
There is no one experiencing what it is like to be or have a 'soul'.
The 'soul' is simply a subjective experience, no one is having.. So no, you haven't got an actual 'soul' that can be experienced as an objective reality, the idea of being a 'soul' is purely subjective. There is no objective reality of 'soul', because objective reality works the same for everyone regardless of what they believe, and the belief in 'soul' obviously doesn't.

A subjective experience refers to the emotional and cognitive impact of a human experience as opposed to an objective experience which are the actual events after they have been defined and quantified.

What is the definition of 'exist' the experience of existing? The answer is to have objective reality or being, which is dependent on us humans, who invented the words, to say so in this conception, aka objective reality. If nobody does that with an object, the object can't even be talked about, imagined, conceived of. If the existence of 'soul' weren't dependent on an observer to say whether it existed or not, then it seems that everything and nothing exists. And no one would be needed to believe or not believe that.

My only point was: I have never seen or experienced anything throughout my lifetime that has suggested the existence of the soul as a possible explanation. It's like if someone were to say there is a sort of hedgehog that lives in a hole on the surface of the planet Pluto. Why would such a thought even cross one's mind, and what unanswered question would it solve?

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:34 am
My only point was: I have never seen or experienced anything throughout my lifetime that has suggested the existence of the soul as a possible explanation. It's like if someone were to say there is a sort of hedgehog that lives in a hole on the surface of the planet Pluto. Why would such a thought even cross one's mind, and what unanswered question would it solve?

I'm agreeing with you.

Someone saying there is a sort of hedgehog that lives in a hole on the surface of the planet Pluto is purely a subjective idea, and not a proven fact known by all of us, the idea of 'soul' is pure fantasy and imagination, not an actual event known to exist as real.

So yes, I agree with your point, why would such a thought even cross one's mind, and what unanswered question would it solve?

I agree Harbal. The very idea of a 'soul' is some thing and no thing, only arising as an illusory sense of there being an individual self experiencing itself as a 'soul' ..but it's imagined, not real, it's just a contraction of the same one entity free energy interacting with itself only, there is no individual separate being known as a 'soul' here AT ALL. No more than there is a God here.

You haven't even got a mind. Same goes for that idea that you have a mind, why would the idea you have a mind even be an experience for you, have you ever seen your mind as being a tangible physical object?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:15 pm
You haven't even got a mind. Same goes for that idea that you have a mind, why would the idea you have a mind even be an experience for you, have you ever seen your mind as being a tangible physical object?

But I seem to have a mind. There is an entity of some kind that I call my mind, and that I am aware of. Even if my impression of having a mind is illusory in some way, there is still something underlying the illusion. I don't see that as being the case with the concept of the soul.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:26 pm But I seem to have a mind. There is an entity of some kind that I call my mind, and that I am aware of. Even if my impression of having a mind is illusory in some way, there is still something underlying the illusion. I don't see that as being the case with the concept of the soul.

So when you scratch the back of your hand and experience that sensation, you don't comprehend that you are unique within this universe?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:42 pm
So when you scratch the back of your hand and experience that sensation, you don't comprehend that you are unique within this universe?

I am aware of being the only thing in the universe that experiences the sensations that come from the back of my hand, but I am not unique in possessing a hand with a back to it, that is occasionally scratched.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:26 pm

But I seem to have a mind. There is an entity of some kind that I call my mind, and that I am aware of. Even if my impression of having a mind is illusory in some way, there is still something underlying the illusion. I don't see that as being the case with the concept of the soul.

The sense of I am is a mental construction born only of dead memory seemingly giving the sense of an alive identity.
Memory is the nonphysical aspect of a human being, considered responsible for the functions of mind and individual identity, albeit illusory.

The 'soul' is defined as being the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal. It's a mental construcion, an hallucination of brain braining that's all. There is no 'soul' in a material brain except as an idea, a mental construction, an illusion created by the believing brain.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:52 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:42 pm
So when you scratch the back of your hand and experience that sensation, you don't comprehend that you are unique within this universe?

I am aware of being the only thing in the universe that experiences the sensations that come from the back of my hand, but I am not unique in possessing a hand with a back to it, that is occasionally scratched.

Very true, and interesting if we are all individual incarnations of some type of object within this reality .......whether, that when we scratch the back of our hands we all experience the same feeling (in our own instances of existence)

..but yeah...I think the human brain is simply a database with a pointer locating it within spacetime

The KEY is, who or wot owns the pointer?

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:26 pm

But I seem to have a mind. There is an entity of some kind that I call my mind, and that I am aware of. Even if my impression of having a mind is illusory in some way, there is still something underlying the illusion. I don't see that as being the case with the concept of the soul.

There is no self, there is no I, there is no spirit, there is no soul, and there is no mind, except in this artificial conception, concepts which create the illusion of an individual self called ( I ) which, so it seems, apparently, creates an artificial sense there is an autonomous continuity of ( I ) that does not want to come to an end. So this illusory individual entity known as I believes it is immortal by believing it is a Soul or God. But for this artificial created sense of self. . It's only existence is born of dead memory giving the illusory sense of continuity living now, albeit illusory.

Only the body is immortal. That which is immortal can never know whether it is dead or alive. Thought is something dead and can never
touch anything living. Thoughts are simply not there in reality. No more than a cat can think itself a cat, because to a cat, the thought I am a cat is not there. It's the same with all living organisms, they have no way of telling themselves they are alive or dead because the body is immortal.

NOT KNOWING IS YOUR NATURAL STATE

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:14 am

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:35 am
I will never pretend that I "know" with absolute certainty that what I stated in my prior post is true.

However, the reason why I made those assertions about the soul...

(assertions that I personally believe are quite plausible)

...is a result of many years of obsessive analyzing of a mind-blowing, life-changing epiphany I experienced when I was 20 years old (approximately 53 years ago).
_______

And does having these beliefs have much influence on the way you live your life, or on how you percieve the world?

Well, seeing how having those beliefs...

(which, again, were brought about by the experience of a profound spiritual epiphany in 1970)

...has caused me to spend the last 53 years of my life trying to put into words and images what the epiphany revealed to me,...

(for example, years of creating a video lecture series that aired on public access television in the 90s, plus the self-publishing of two books - one in 1986 and another in 2008, not to mention spending vast amounts of time posting on philosophy forums)

...then, yes, it is safe to say that the beliefs I hold have had a major influence on how I have lived my life and on my perception of the world.

In a subsequent post you stated the following to Iwannaplato...

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:25 am "...I have never experienced anything in my life that has led to my considering the possibility of the existence of anything that could be called a soul..."

As always, I'm not suggesting that I can't be wrong (i.e., delusional), however, if nothing else, you need to be open to the possibility that some of us (for whatever reason) have indeed experienced events in our lives that have made us aware of the existence of a spiritual realm.

I'm talking about a transcendent context of reality of which the universe, in comparison, is nothing more than a sort of "vestibule" that momentarily stands between our previous non-existence and that of our entrance into a higher dimension of reality in which after crossing the vestibule's threshold (via death), our true (and eternal) form (our "soul" and its purpose) will finally be revealed to us.
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:35 pm
As always, I'm not suggesting that I can't be wrong (i.e., delusional), however, if nothing else, you need to be open to the possibility that some of us (for whatever reason) have indeed experienced events in our lives that have made us aware of the existence of a spiritual realm.

I'm talking about a transcendent context of reality of which the universe, in comparison, is nothing more than a sort of "vestibule" that momentarily stands between our previous non-existence and that of our entrance into a higher dimension of reality in which after crossing the vestibule's threshold (via death), our true (and eternal) form (our "soul" and its purpose) will finally be revealed to us.
_______

I'm not closed to the possibility of anything you have said, and, at this present time, I neither accept it nor reject it. Supposing you are right, and there is a "higher dimension of reality" to which we transcend after our physical death, why do I need to be aware of it before my death? Why not just concern ourselves with the realm we happen to be existing in at the present?

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:11 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:35 pm
As always, I'm not suggesting that I can't be wrong (i.e., delusional), however, if nothing else, you need to be open to the possibility that some of us (for whatever reason) have indeed experienced events in our lives that have made us aware of the existence of a spiritual realm.

I'm talking about a transcendent context of reality of which the universe, in comparison, is nothing more than a sort of "vestibule" that momentarily stands between our previous non-existence and that of our entrance into a higher dimension of reality in which after crossing the vestibule's threshold (via death), our true (and eternal) form (our "soul" and its purpose) will finally be revealed to us.
_______

I'm not closed to the possibility of anything you have said, and, at this present time, I neither accept it nor reject it. Supposing you are right, and there is a "higher dimension of reality" to which we transcend after our physical death, why do I need to be aware of it before my death? Why not just concern ourselves with the realm we happen to be existing in at the present?

But you are concerning yourself re 'it'. You don't need to be aware of 'it' before you death, but clearly your soul wants to know since you appear to have created a thread to question the matter ....and here we are.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:51 am
But you are concerning yourself re 'it'. You don't need to be aware of 'it' before you death, but clearly your soul wants to know since you appear to have created a thread to question the matter ....and here we are.

Questions can only arise to the sense of 'separate self' when there's a contraction of energy appearing as if there is a sense of 'self'. This separation does not exist in the real world, 'it' is illusory. Nothing can see itself. Nothing can know itself. Nothing lives. Nothing dies.
That which appears to live, never dies. And that which appears to die, never lives.

The video I have left you will explain how there is no distance between the seer and the seen, and that reality is seamless, one without a second Nothing being Everything, rendering all knowledge an illusion. Knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of our reality, albeit a persistant one.

('It') means someone's trying to make themselves sound important and 'sensitive' by pretending they have super-powers.

Mind needs to know. Mind always needs some sort of purpose, some sort of meaning and reason for being to fill up the empty nature of itself. Mind is always seeking to fill the void, but there is nothing to fill it with, it's already empty fullness.


The Art of Seeing what I am without looking Duration: 7mins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmF3FLfl0vM
In this short film I witness how the Observatories collapse the space between what I am looking at and where I am Seeing from. When all distance collapses, I am no longer looking into the world, all of the world is Seeing out of me. What I am looking at is where I am Seeing from.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:18 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:09 am

Ya, nice post Iwannaplato.

Pff. A soul and how to contemplate what it IS?

I used to think that (since knowing an intelligence exists at the backbone to everything)..that perhaps there is something material within our being that gets repositioned, re-implanted (reincarnation)...

I guess I still do, but I think a lot about our POV within REALITY...that, perhaps in a similar way to how a pointer works within a computer program, that there indeed is this link (pointer/place-holder) that can recursively (when we die) drop off and be re-assigned to another material body.

Just some food for thought Harbal

I'm sure there are countless speculative possibilities of what a sould might be, and what might happen to it after the physical death of the body, but how on earth do you find a reason to think any particular one might be the case?

The One that IS ACTUALLY and IRREFUTABLY True is a GREAT WAY to DECIPHER between the ones that 'might' be the case from that One that IS ACTUALLY THE CASE.

IF you would like to DISCOVER and FIND OUT which One IS ACTUALLY 'the case', then I am more than WILLING to WORK THROUGH, with you, ALL of the 'cases', and SHOW and REVEAL HOW, on earth, the One and ONLY ACTUALLY Right and True One IS FOUND.