Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:12 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm
Easy. Jesus Christ.

Where, exactly, can I examine this, "Jesus Christ," with my own eyes?

At the Judgment. Then you'll get your chance.

What 'judgment'?

Who makes this 'judgment'?

When do they make the 'judgment'?

What ACTUALLY occurs and happens at 'judgment'? And,

Where does this 'judgment' thing take place?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:12 pm But until then, nobody ever promised you that things you haven't personally seen (yet) "with your own eyes" are not real. I presume you realize there was a such thing as the Spanish Armada or the Napoleonic Wars?

When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere.

Well, nobody claims it goes anywhere for paramecia or gibbons, unless one is a reincarnationist of some kind. But as regards human life, what's your evidence for that confidence of yours?

WHERE is the 'evidence' for BOTH of your views AND claims? Let alone WHERE is thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE for BOTH of your views and CLAIMS here?

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:15 pm
I did not think we did.


And your evidence bolstering your certainty of that is...

I'll wait.

Visit any morgue. There are endless specimens. That's just one form of evidence. Every dead thing is evidence, and anyone can examine them.

Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Death is not an experience. All the experiences that ever happened and ever will happen don't vanish when all the individuals die . If all the living beings in the universe ceased to live their experiences would exist in the Absolute experience which is not subject to time or place. If you understand the theory of existence called idealism you may understand what I mean when I say "the Absolute".

What is YOUR understanding of the so-called "the theory of existence", which is also called "idealism"?

And, what EXACTLY do you just mean or refer to when you say, "the Absolute"?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:51 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
Death is not an experience.

That's right. It's the end or cessation of all experience.

AGAIN, you talk in a FULL, ABSOLUTE, TOTAL, or ABSOLUTE sense. Which, OBVIOUSLY, what you are referring to is NOT.

Or, do you REALLY mean or refer to 'the cessation of ALL EXPERIENCE', at let us say, "the DEATH of your partner or a family member"?

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
All the experiences that ever happened and ever will happen don't vanish when all the individuals die.

Where do they go? What would an, "experience," that no one is having be, since the dead don't experience anything. How could you possibly know this. It's mystical nonsense.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
If all the living beings in the universe ceased to live their experiences would exist in the Absolute experience which is not subject to time or place. If you understand the theory of existence called idealism you may understand what I mean when I say "the Absolute".

Do you have any idea how absurd that is. Are on some kind of drugs? If you have a headache, and die, your headache continues to exist in some mystical, "absolute experience," someplace, somehow, and you know this because the little man that lives in your ear told, right?

That's a lot of woo-woo.
[/quote]

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:04 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:49 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm "After life," is rightly called death. It is when there is no longer life.

NOT NECESSARILY SO, AT ALL.

If there is still life, "after life," what is it, "after?"

You OBVIOUSLY MUST OF MISSED what I previously wrote. That is; There are DIFFERENT 'ways of lifes' in which 'you', human beings, can live within. For example, 'you' can all live in a greedy and selfish 'way of life', or, 'you' can all live in a much more peaceful and harmonious 'way of life'. So, when one 'life' ends, then AFTER that 'way of life' dies or passes away, then another 'way of life' can begin.

There is also 'still life' AFTER 'your life', has ended, as there are OTHERS 'still alive or living' AFTER 'you' and 'your life'.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:04 am To everyone except mystics and idiots, "after," something means following something that has ended, something that no longer is.

Yes. And I have ALREADY SHOWN how what the 'afterlife' could be meaning and referring to, EXACTLY.

ONLY when ALL of what is said and written, from the context of what has been said and written, was ACTUALLY MEANT is thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' UNCOVERED or REVEALED.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:04 am Also, to everyone except mystics and idiots, when life no longer is, it is called death.

And, only to so-called "idiots" 'Life', Itself, could end. So, there is NO possible thing as "Life no longer".

Also, only an "idiot" would think or believe that just because one human body stops breathing and pumping blood, then there is NO more 'life'.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:04 am Are you a mystic? are you an idiot?--forgive me for repeating the question.

LOL

As I previously stated: Here is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just how BELIEF, itself, completely and utterly STOPS one from being able to learn and see MORE.

I also noted: If you would like to LOOK INTO this subject MORE, then you will be ABLE TO learn and understand MORE as well.

But what can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVED True here is that 'you' BELIEVE IN WHOLEHEARTEDLY what 'you' BELIEVE is true here.

Would you be able to even just consider that your BELIEFS are STOPPING or PREVENTING you from LEARNING and SEEING more?

Or, what you BELIEVE is true here just could NOT be ANY thing else but just ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY true, right, AND correct?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:10 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:33 am
I have no idea what you are talking about. Confidence in what?

You said, "

When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere.

I want to know how you know that. You seem to think you do.

Your kidding.

That would be "you're."

life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of stuff

You have no idea what it is. Nobody really does. There are over a hundred possible definitions of the term, and no conclusive one.

So your confidence is based on nothing. "Life" remains a mystery to you.

You just hope it ends at death. But you have no idea what happens at death.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:10 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:33 am
I have no idea what you are talking about. Confidence in what?

You said, "

When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere.

I want to know how you know that. You seem to think you do.

Your kidding.

i don't believe you, because I've already explained life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of stuff. There is nothing to go anywhere.

When a fire goes out, where does the fire go? When you turn a light on, where does the dark go. When the sun goes behind a cloud, where does your shadow go. When you die you are just no longer alive.

What and/or what is the 'you' EXACTLY?

I KEEP asking 'you', posters, in the days when this was being written, this question, and we are STILL WAITING an answer.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am You, "aliveness," doesn't go anywhere, it just ceases to be an attribute of the physical entity which was your body.

Duh!

So, WHEN does what 'you' call "aliveness" START?

If so-called "aliveness" can 'cease', then when can 'it' 'begin'?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:10 am

You said, "
I want to know how you know that. You seem to think you do.

Your kidding.

That would be "you're."

life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of stuff

You have no idea what it is. Nobody really does.

Some of 'us' do KNOW, EXACTLY, what 'life' AND 'Life' IS.

And, 'you', human beings, WILL ALSO come-to-KNOW, AS WELL.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am There are over a hundred possible definitions of the term, and no conclusive one.

Conclusive definitions are FOUND when what 'it' IS EXACTLY that one is talking about and referring to becomes KNOWN.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am So your confidence is based on nothing. "Life" remains a mystery to you.

And, what, EXACTLY, is 'your' confidence based on, "immanuel can"?

Or, are you NOT confident in what you THINK you are talking about here?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am You just hope it ends at death. But you have no idea what happens at death.

BOTH of 'you' appear to have absolutely NO idea what happens at what is Wrongly called "death", but what is ACTUALLY just what is referred to when a human body stops breathing and pumping blood.

But what thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth is here EXACTLY can be very easily explained and very simply understood, and FULLY by the way also.

But neither of 'you' two will be able to come to understand this fully while you each maintain the BELIEFS you BOTH have here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 am But you have no idea what happens at death.

A period or state of inactivity or equilibrium happens at death, that's what death is. It's the stateless state the body/mind mechanism is in when in deep dreamless sleep, and also in dreaming sleep.

Death is just another concept for stasis.

No concept cannot know another concept in the same context a character in a nightly dream cannot know of itself.

When you choose to understand the pointings that nonduality points to via conceptual understanding, and be fully open to what the concepts are pointing to, and not reject them, is when you will finally understand the idea that 'life and death' is a fictional concept only. The rejection comes with the realisation that the you that you have always believed to be you ..is neither dead nor alive, except in this conception. AKA the illusion of separation.

Life is a dream dreamt by no one. But then who would believe that? the same one who believes anything at all, as it is conceived to be as and through imagination...now imagine that.

You cannot know anything, you can only know you cannot know anything, everything else is just the eternal echo of silence sounding..

The only good news about knowledge, is that is can inform the knower into accepting what is known, or it can reject what is known, that's the good news.
So all the pain that comes with being a sentient feeling creature can be rejected and stopped, but here is the bad news, no one seems to want to stop it, so be it, no one is going to save you except yourself.

To know you are alive will come at a great price, if you are happy to pay for this knowledge, then you will only get what you want. If you want knowledge, you will be granted knowledge, right up until you stop the need for knowledge. You have invented this knowledge, you are the only source of knowledge, there is no other source than straight from the horses mouth.

You have made your own bed here, and only you can LIE in it, or you can get out, it's your choice.

When one is born, a knowing one is alive, then everyone is born... that's the kicker. When one thing is known, everything is known, because there is only everything. Everything is ONE THING.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:01 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm
Visit any morgue. There are endless specimens. That's just one form of evidence. Every dead thing is evidence, and anyone can examine them.

Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Death is not an experience. All the experiences that ever happened and ever will happen don't vanish when all the individuals die . If all the living beings in the universe ceased to live their experiences would exist in the Absolute experience which is not subject to time or place. If you understand the theory of existence called idealism you may understand what I mean when I say "the Absolute".

What is YOUR understanding of the so-called "the theory of existence", which is also called "idealism"?

And, what EXACTLY do you just mean or refer to when you say, "the Absolute"?

I don't know why you ask as in a recent post of your own you sort of explained the Absolute as without measurements such as space, time and causality.The Absolute(sometimes referred to as the Universe) has space, time and causality imposed upon it by men.

Idealism is the theory that there is only one ultimate substance and that ultimate substance is mind, or experience. By contrast with idealism , materialism is the theory that here is only one ultimate substance and that substance (unlike mind)is extended in space.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:03 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:01 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am
Death is not an experience. All the experiences that ever happened and ever will happen don't vanish when all the individuals die . If all the living beings in the universe ceased to live their experiences would exist in the Absolute experience which is not subject to time or place. If you understand the theory of existence called idealism you may understand what I mean when I say "the Absolute".

What is YOUR understanding of the so-called "the theory of existence", which is also called "idealism"?

And, what EXACTLY do you just mean or refer to when you say, "the Absolute"?

I don't know why you ask as in a recent post of your own you sort of explained the Absolute as without measurements such as space, time and causality.The Absolute(sometimes referred to as the Universe) has space, time and causality imposed upon it by men.

And, if you would like to KNOW, I suggest just asking a CLARIFYING question.

But, so you do become AWARE, and do KNOW, WHY I asked those two CLARIFYING questions is so that I could learn more and/or become wiser. I also do it so that I can obtain more 'evidence' and/or 'proof', which I could then be able to use later on.

But sadly, and unfortunately, sometimes when I do just ask, Truly OPEN, CLARIFYING questions some people ASSUME or BELIEVE that I have an opposite or different view of 'things' are are somehow trying to argue for some other view. Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I am ACTUALLY doing. See, a LOT of the time when I just ask a CLARIFYING question, this is because I have the EXACT SAME view or position and I am just SEEKING out if there is MORE ACTUAL PROOF for this view.

One can NEVER have 'enough' PROOF to back up and support a view they have or a CLAIM they make, as there will nearly always be someone who will want to 'try to' argue ANOTHER position.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:03 am Idealism is the theory that there is only one ultimate substance and that ultimate substance is mind, or experience. By contrast with idealism , materialism is the theory that here is only one ultimate substance and that substance (unlike mind)is extended in space.

Thank you very much for this. ALL clarification is very much appreciated, although very rarely received.

Forgetting what the word 'space' refers to exactly above, to me, what the ultimate 'substance' is EXACTLY will depend on how the word 'substance' is being defined here EXACTLY. But anyway, to me, that there is ONLY One ultimate 'Thing' existing 'It' could be, and IS, made of two actual 'things'. (As it will be found absolutely EVERY thing is created from at least two things coming together). But, thee One and ONLY True 'Thing' existing, let us call thee Universe here, is made up of, and let us use the term 'substance' here very loosely, two substances, that is; matter, a visible thing, AND, nothing, an, obviously, invisible thing.

See, if there was only one ultimate substance, then thee Universe would be one, infinite, solid piece of matter, or one, infinite, nothingness. Of which either does NOT exist and could NOT exist if a 'thing' or 'being' was to exist, which was able to consider ALL-OF-THIS.

There is a 'being', which is considering ALL-OF-THIS, and in fact there are MANY 'beings' considering at SOME of ALL-OF-THIS. Which are usually known as 'human beings'.

Now, because 'human beings' DO EXIST, which NO human being could deny, this then means that there could NOT be just one ultimate substance of either just matter, without nothing nor a distance of 'space' between matter, NOR a substance of just nothingness. Which then means there IS BOTH matter AND 'space', or nothingness CO-EXISTING TOGETHER. And that this HAS TO HAVE ALWAYS been like this. As one coming FROM the other one could NEVER have occurred.

There is FAR MORE IRREFUTABLE PROOF that DOES back up AND support ALL OF THIS. That is; IF ANY one is Truly INTERESTED in learning MORE.

Age wrote:

See, if there was only one ultimate substance, then thee Universe would be one, infinite, solid piece of matter, or one, infinite, nothingness. Of which either does NOT exist and could NOT exist if a 'thing' or 'being' was to exist, which was able to consider ALL-OF-THIS.

But the block universe does co-exist with beings that can "consider ALL-OF-THIS".

The reason for their co-existence is that beings that can "consider ALL-OF-THIS" are limited to the phenomena that appear to us .We are limited by birth, death and causality but the infinite universe is not limited.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of stuff

You have no idea what it is. Nobody really does. There are over a hundred possible definitions of the term, and no conclusive one.

So your confidence is based on nothing. "Life" remains a mystery to you.

You just hope it ends at death. But you have no idea what happens at death.

You obviously have no idea what life is, since you claim nobody does. It's a bit of hubris to assume what you are ignorant of pertains to everyone.

I at least know what I mean by the word life. I mean the attribute that differentiates living organisms from mere non-living physical entities. I identify exactly what the attributes of life are that are unique to living organisms.

Like all attributes or qualities, they only exist in those existents that have them. There is no life separate from physical living organisms.

I do appreciate your candor in admitting you have no idea what life is. Anyone who thinks life can exist independently of a living organism has no idea what life is.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:29 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 am But you have no idea what happens at death.

A period or state of inactivity or equilibrium happens at death,

You don't know that, either. Even asking somebody who claimed to have a 'near death' experience couldn't assure us of anything, since delusions are a human possibility.

Only God could say what happens after death. Only He is free from the constraints of time and space.

Anything else would be guesses.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 am life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of stuff

You have no idea what it is. Nobody really does. There are over a hundred possible definitions of the term, and no conclusive one.

So your confidence is based on nothing. "Life" remains a mystery to you.

You just hope it ends at death. But you have no idea what happens at death.

You obviously have no idea what life is, since you claim nobody does. It's a bit of hubris to assume what you are ignorant of pertains to everyone.

Well, one biologist says there are as many as 123 such definitions. {Trifonov, Edward N. (17 March 2011). "Vocabulary of Definitions of Life Suggests a Definition". Journal of Biomolecuoar Structure and Dynamics. 29 (2): 259–266.} So I would say that anybody who says they have a single, tidy definition is simply unaware of the complexity of the issue.

That would be you, it seems.

See what a little education can do for hubris?

But what we all know is when life is absent or gone. We all understand when something is inanimate or dead. And we know that what once had life can end up in that state.

But we don't know what happens to that life, or whether death ends all.

Only God knows that, or could know that.

So I'm quite sure you don't.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:04 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 am
You have no idea what it is. Nobody really does. There are over a hundred possible definitions of the term, and no conclusive one.

So your confidence is based on nothing. "Life" remains a mystery to you.

You just hope it ends at death. But you have no idea what happens at death.

You obviously have no idea what life is, since you claim nobody does. It's a bit of hubris to assume what you are ignorant of pertains to everyone.

Well, one biologist says there are as many as 123 such definitions. {Trifonov, Edward N. (17 March 2011). "Vocabulary of Definitions of Life Suggests a Definition". Journal of Biomolecuoar Structure and Dynamics. 29 (2): 259–266.} So I would say that anybody who says they have a single, tidy definition is simply unaware of the complexity of the issue.

That would be you, it seems.

See what a little education can do for hubris?

But what we all know is when life is absent or gone. We all understand when something is inanimate or dead. And we know that what once had life can end up in that state.

But we don't know what happens to that life, or whether death ends all.

Only God knows that, or could know that.

So I'm quite sure you don't.

Look, if you want to claim ignorance, fine. It's the last resort of those who hate the truth, but it apparently comforts you. I suppose for those for whom this life is not fully satisfying, because they are not able to live it successfully, looking for another one is the best they have to look forward to. A nice dream, perhaps. If you like it, I'll not wake you.