Philosophy Now Forum

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:23 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:35 am After all what would be the purpose of 'inquiry' if one is NOT finding answers nor solutions?

It's possible for some people to just enjoy the process for its own sake, and they'd sure develop/refine the process as they're doing it, which is itself a kind of solution/answer (to what works as the process of inquiry).

Agreed. For example, exploring a landscape/territory can be about enjoying the adventure and experience of it. It doesn't need to be defined/determined to the point of some particular conclusion/perspective. Vast potential can be the discovery and the practice.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 amNote all the above knowledge will not help significantly in one's core "enlightenment" but merely support it in whatever ways. The warning is not to cling to the knowledge and wisdom, and even whatever 'enlightenment' or 'get it" you claimed to achieve.

I am not a student of Richard Baker.

One's "core enlightenment?" If I might suggest some reading for you, check into Dogen.

You say that one should not cling to knowledge and wisdom. What do you feel is the purpose of meditation if it is not to attenuate this clinging.

There is only one lesson...meditate. Do the hard work necessary and stop with your, "If I only read four hundred thousand more books, I'll get it!"

The Buddha taught sitting meditation as The Way. Good enough for him, good enough for me.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 am Note the famous Zen saying,

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

So why not,

"Before enlightenment, read, seek knowledge/wisdom. After enlightenment, read, seek knowledge/wisdom "

There is no problem with anything as long as if is done with a clear mind. The wisdom that will arise from this state will guide your actions.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:51 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:00 am But if one is still never finding answers, then what would 'develop/refine the process' be in relation to, exactly?

The methodology of doing philosophy

If, to you, one can DO philosophy, then what, exactly, does the word 'philosophy' actually mean or refer to, to you here?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:40 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:23 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:35 am After all what would be the purpose of 'inquiry' if one is NOT finding answers nor solutions?

It's possible for some people to just enjoy the process for its own sake, and they'd sure develop/refine the process as they're doing it, which is itself a kind of solution/answer (to what works as the process of inquiry).

Agreed. For example, exploring a landscape/territory can be about enjoying the adventure and experience of it.

I VERY MUCH agree here.

But just 'exploring' a landscape/territory can be a VERY DIFFERENT thing to 'inquiry', itself.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:40 pm It doesn't need to be defined/determined to the point of some particular conclusion/perspective.

VERY True, and again I VERY MUCH agree with this here.

But, again, 'inquiry, itself, can be and is a VERY DIFFERENT thing to just 'exploring', itself.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:40 pmVast potential can be the discovery and the practice.

That there is 'vast potential' is a thing and not necessarily a discovery nor practice. After all EVERY young child instinctively KNOWS that there IS 'vast potential' anyway, and that 'vast potentnal' ACTUALLY exists, and thus IS an IRREFUTABLE Fact anyway.

But this OBVIOUS IRREFUTABLE Fact does NOT mean that IRREFUTABLE Facts do NOT exist.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:54 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 amNote all the above knowledge will not help significantly in one's core "enlightenment" but merely support it in whatever ways. The warning is not to cling to the knowledge and wisdom, and even whatever 'enlightenment' or 'get it" you claimed to achieve.

I am not a student of Richard Baker.

I am not claiming you are a direct student of Richard Baker.

What the linked article claimed is the ideology of Soto Zen and that of School Suzuki [you are a student of] that enable a personality and scandals like Richard Baker to manifest.
IF Soto Zen's teachings and ideology is that positive [good] as claimed, then we should not have seen the likes of Richard Baker and others.
It is undeniable there are benefits from Zen practices, but given the above circumstances, these benefits are at best mediocre which you find suitable, but there is a possibility it can also manifest evil tendencies from those who are vulnerable.

One's "core enlightenment?" If I might suggest some reading for you, check into Dogen.

I am familiar with Dogen in general but not in detail.

Note:

Dōgen's masterpiece is the Shōbōgenzō, talks and writings collected together in ninety-five fascicles.
The topics range from monastic practice, to the equality of women and men, to the philosophy of language, being, and time.
In the work, as in his own life, Dōgen emphasized the absolute primacy of shikantaza and the inseparability of practice and enlightenment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Dge ... genz%C5%8D

From the above it is obvious that Dogen himself got involved with very deep reflection to gather knowledge and wisdom in addition to his practice of meditation.
Dogen also wrote many other books and such activity would not be possible without being involved in intellectual activities, seeking knowledge and wisdom, just as I am doing at present.
If you view what I have been doing with contempt why are you not being critical of Dogen intellectual activities. What don't you suggest Dogen should have "just sit!" and don't think too much to write books.

You say that one should not cling to knowledge and wisdom. What do you feel is the purpose of meditation if it is not to attenuate this clinging.

I am very surprised you are asking me about the concept of 'clinging' [attachment] re meditation. It is very basic to Buddhism-proper and most reputable spiritual paths.

The purpose of meditation [two of the essential 8-Fold-Paths] is to achieve the skillful ability to manage and modulate one life forces [negative and positive] to ensure the optimality of one's well being and therefrom to humanity.
As such one of the purpose of meditation is the development of the competence for one to manage and modulate one's impulse to clinging or attachment.

Note the negativity of clinging [net negative]

Upādāna is the Sanskrit and Pāli word for "clinging", "attachment" or "grasping", although the literal meaning is "fuel".[4] Upādāna and taṇhā (Skt. tṛṣṇā) are seen as the two primary causes of suffering.
The cessation of clinging leads to Nirvana.

Re Dogen and Clinging/attachment, here is a quickie,

Dōgen’s “Ceaseless Practice”
One such line of thought insists that adopting an attitude of nonattachment, a trait seemingly essential to all branches of Buddhism,
....
Moreover, far from being tangential, these teachings are often essentially linked to their mysticism—that is, to their espousal of an attitude of nonattachment. For brevity, I will focus on “ceaseless practice in the Buddha-mind,” the way of life advocated by Dōgen Zenji (1200-1253), the founder of Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism.
I take Dōgen to be describing a mystical way of being, inasmuch as the ideal spiritual life he describes involves the maintenance of an attitude of nonattachment and a continuous awareness of the Divine (that is, Buddha-nature) as a pervasive unity encompassing all things.
Link

There is only one lesson...meditate. Do the hard work necessary and stop with your, "If I only read four hundred thousand more books, I'll get it!"

Sorry to say you are very ignorant of the full extent of Buddhism-proper.

Either you missed my point or is being deceptive and lying; I have never claimed we can develop spirituality via reading about it. Don't assume I am that stupid.
There is a big difference between 'knowing' and 'doing'.
It is the same with various skills, e.g. sports, other skills which cannot be developed by merely reading about them, but what is critical to acquire skills is to practice it right repeatedly.
However reading and thinking about the development of a skill is essential to ensure effectively in the acquisition of the intended skill to avoid bad habits and dangerous moves.

I presumed if you are facing Dogen now, you would be asking him to stop reading the various sutras, stop reflecting on them, don't write books but just-sit!
By your above call, you are insulting Buddhism-proper and Dogen and the rest who are doing the same.

The Buddha taught sitting meditation as The Way. Good enough for him, good enough for me.

The above is because of your ignorance of Buddhism proper.
Buddhism-proper promote the Middle-Way specifically,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Way
not just 'The Way' which is the focus of Taoism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

Within Buddhism-proper, there are hundreds of Sutras from the Buddha which cover a wide range of spirituality and philosophy. So the Buddha was heavily involved in intellectual reflection seeking knowledge and wisdom in addition to the necessary practice of meditation.

Being wise, the Buddha is aware of the different psychological and spiritual states of humans and thus he taught the relevant knowledge and practice that was relevant to the receptivity of the group he was facing then. Thus he taught different levels knowledge depending whether the majority of the group are lay-persons or are highly spiritually inclined.

The Buddha also taught two main methods of meditation i.e. Samartha [concentration, letting go] and Mindfulness which are essentials of the Noble Eightfold Paths to manage and module Dukkha [usually translated as sufferings].

Btw personally to me, the existence of a Buddha as founder of current Buddhism is a myth. There is no such real person as The Buddha. What is critical are the consistent core principles and practices of Buddhism which can be abstracted from the various schools of Buddhism.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:17 amBtw personally to me, the existence of a Buddha as founder of current Buddhism is a myth. There is no such real person as The Buddha. What is critical are the consistent core principles and practices of Buddhism which can be abstracted from the various schools of Buddhism.

I have no problem with anything, particularly intellectual things. You miss my point. I am a physician and have extensive intellectual training. My point is that becoming "aware" allows one to make MUCH better use of what the intellect can actually give you [which is very different than almost everybody thinks]. I am sure I have read ten times the number of books you have and read every day. It is my main source of pleasure [sitting on my porch on a beautiful day with a great novel]. I don't read about spiritual matters anymore because I already did that...

All of the writings in Zen/Buddhism were designed to point its students toward the heart of practice...meditation. This is what the Buddha taught but he [and others along the way] knew that very, very few people would do the work necessary to attain any realization so the religion of Buddhism was brought forth to give everybody else a way to live a MUCH better life. Buddhism is a wonderful religion and its teachings are incredible, but it's not what it is.

Read to your heart's content, but if you wish to transcend the ordinary, "understand" the relative v. Absolute, and truly help all beings, sit. When another way becomes available, everybody will know about in 30 seconds. Be one of the very few and do the work. It will change your life forever!

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:24 pm With rare exception, the entire corpus of recorded philosophy is utterly useless. The only exceptions are Aristotle [...]

Why does Aristotle get the high grade?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:24 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:24 pm With rare exception, the entire corpus of recorded philosophy is utterly useless. The only exceptions are Aristotle [...]

Why does Aristotle get the high grade?

Because he asserted that knowledge is possible and that there is a reality to know.

simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:09 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:17 amBtw personally to me, the existence of a Buddha as founder of current Buddhism is a myth. There is no such real person as The Buddha. What is critical are the consistent core principles and practices of Buddhism which can be abstracted from the various schools of Buddhism.

I have no problem with anything, particularly intellectual things. You miss my point. I am a physician and have extensive intellectual training. My point is that becoming "aware" allows one to make MUCH better use of what the intellect can actually give you [which is very different than almost everybody thinks]. I am sure I have read ten times the number of books you have and read every day. It is my main source of pleasure [sitting on my porch on a beautiful day with a great novel]. I don't read about spiritual matters anymore because I already did that...

The point is "enlightenment" is not a destination but rather a never ending journey with milestones/stages of progress [of sudden or gradual realizations] along the way.

What is most critical for a Physician is extensive intellectual knowledge [continual] but more importantly is continual practice and experience as with any other skills. Thus spiritual skills cannot be the only exception!

What I understand from your counters is you seem to take 'enlightenment' as a final destination, so thereafter one don't have to read at all.

My point is I don't take 'enlightenment' or 'get it' as a final destination but rather a journey which must be taken with doing [practices] but it is still more effective to continually read and understand to maps and various conditions relevant to that journey to cater for inevitable changes within oneself and the environment.

Another point is while we can stop learning and practicing other conventional skills we cannot [should not] do so with spiritual skills and knowledge which is for life.

Surely you understand the brain deteriorates with age or expeditiously in later life. As such there is no guarantee that 'get it' can be sustained in any Zen or spiritual practitioner in later life in cases where for some the brain deteriorates at a greater rate.
But I believe a spiritual practitioner who supplement his spiritual state with knowledge and wisdom intellectually and otherwise will have exercised brain muscles more to sustain his spiritual cognitive faculties longer than one who has not.

The problem is you assumed I am merely a beginner and trying to achieve that 'get it' via books only without the necessary practice. I had pointed out I had been on this ongoing spiritual journey for a very long time. And it would be very stupid of me [spiritually] to insist the only way is via reading books with the intellectual approach.

Without knowing the truths of my situation, I suggest you don't jump to conclusion that you have read 10 times the number of books you have in your lifetime or what you read everyday. If I had read 10,000 books that mean you have to prove you have read 100,000 books?

Btw, since I took up meditation I have never read any novel nor any book on fictions. What I read is all reality based.

All of the writings in Zen/Buddhism were designed to point its students toward the heart of practice...meditation. This is what the Buddha taught but he [and others along the way] knew that very, very few people would do the work necessary to attain any realization so the religion of Buddhism was brought forth to give everybody else a way to live a MUCH better life. Buddhism is a wonderful religion and its teachings are incredible, but it's not what it is.

Earlier you wrote as if there is no need for books and thinking.
If you now agree there are writings in Zen/Buddhism to guide students, then they need to read them and the master [Dogen for example] who wrote the books would prefer his students to read them thoroughly. Note Dogen, as I linked above, also wrote on related philosophical subjects for reflection, not merely guides for his disciples. How come you did not criticized Dogen on this?.

I remember when I first [thereafter I moved on] started with meditation [Vedanta], my understanding changed with a clearer picture after each reading of the Bhagavad Gita which I have read more than >100 times. It is the same with the other spiritual books I have read related to various spiritual masters, especially those from Nagarjuna and the likes.

BUT the point is not every Zen student or person has the inclination for reading and serious reading into the Zen writing which can be very complex. Some prefer to just take simply instructions and do whatever is advised.

I am sure you can see the similarity with your patients, some will just take your advice and prescriptions with faith while others would prefer to research, read up before making any decisions.

Buddhism is a wonderful religion and its teachings are incredible, but it's not what it is.

Buddhism is "not what it is"
You know what Buddhism is? From you have posted I don't cognize you know Buddhism thoroughly.

To understand Buddhism-proper, one need to research it from its philosophy and related matters prior to Gautama to the extent of its present fringe sects [Zen being one].
I have done that.
You? What I see with you is you are relying on very subjective views and trying to impose those limited views on Buddhism-proper which has 2500 years of history after Gautama and 7500 years of history before Gautama.

Read to your heart's content, but if you wish to transcend the ordinary, "understand" the relative v. Absolute, and truly help all beings, sit. When another way becomes available, everybody will know about in 30 seconds. Be one of the very few and do the work. It will change your life forever!

There you go again, you are still assuming I am a beginner seeking for some spiritual ends via reading of books despite what I have been explaining in so many posts. I attribute your narrow thinking to your ignorance on such spiritual matters.

Besides meditation, I am aware there are many approaches and ways one can experience 'sudden enlightenment' e.g. via drugs, hallucinogens, stress, brain damage, mental illness, magnetic triggers, out-of-the-blue, etc.
Note this;
DMT: The Spirit Molecule (2010)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwZqVqbkyLM

The problem is you don't read widely on spiritual-related subjects other than dogmatically clinging to your Zen beliefs and practices.
Btw, can you give me an idea what you know about the points I mentioned above and why those sudden experiences are different from that 'get it' you experienced from Zen?

The point is you can spend years "just sit" to achieve "that" but a person who take DMT or the right hallucinogen can experience the same 'that' in 30 seconds or one session.

Newberg did research to find commonalities with those [including Zen practitioners] who claimed they have achieved some sort of 'enlightenment' experience, and noted they all have certain brain activities in common.
Note this brain imaging before and after meditation;



Newberg also compare the brain imagings of new meditators and those who have meditate for a long time [>30 to 40 years].
Whilst Newberg has shown some commonalities, I believe such via brain imaging is still crude.
What we need in future is to identify the exact neuronal connections for those who claim to experience 'enlightenment' to identify the commonalities.
I am optimistic this possible given the trend of progress in this
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/
to map every neural connection in the human brain.
Whilst 100% is quite impossible to achieve 75% is sufficient to reveal a lot about spiritual activities and states in the brain.

I am confident when we have the more exact neural connections and state of the brains of Zen practitioners of your likes, they are likely to me "mediocre".
I am also confident my neural state of 'enlightenment' based on detailed imaging would ranked somewhere reasonable along the continuum [given the spiritual practices I have put in] instead of the ZERO you assumed for me.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:04 am

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:51 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:00 am But if one is still never finding answers, then what would 'develop/refine the process' be in relation to, exactly?

The methodology of doing philosophy

If, to you, one can DO philosophy, then what, exactly, does the word 'philosophy' actually mean or refer to, to you here?

I've no interest in getting into an argument about what philosophy refers to. You do philosophy when you think and write in a philosophical way, using philosophical methodology.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:09 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:17 amBtw personally to me, the existence of a Buddha as founder of current Buddhism is a myth. There is no such real person as The Buddha. What is critical are the consistent core principles and practices of Buddhism which can be abstracted from the various schools of Buddhism.

I have no problem with anything, particularly intellectual things. You miss my point. I am a physician and have extensive intellectual training. My point is that becoming "aware" allows one to make MUCH better use of what the intellect can actually give you [which is very different than almost everybody thinks]. I am sure I have read ten times the number of books you have and read every day. It is my main source of pleasure [sitting on my porch on a beautiful day with a great novel]. I don't read about spiritual matters anymore because I already did that...

The point is "enlightenment" is not a destination but rather a never ending journey with milestones/stages of progress [of sudden or gradual realizations] along the way.

And you know this because of your readings? Enlightenment is a state of being. Nothing special. Meditation only.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amWhat is most critical for a Physician is extensive intellectual knowledge [continual] but more importantly is continual practice and experience as with any other skills. Thus spiritual skills cannot be the only exception!

It is the exception because it is non-intellectual.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amWhat I understand from your counters is you seem to take 'enlightenment' as a final destination, so thereafter one don't have to read at all.

My point is I don't take 'enlightenment' or 'get it' as a final destination but rather a journey which must be taken with doing [practices] but it is still more effective to continually read and understand to maps and various conditions relevant to that journey to cater for inevitable changes within oneself and the environment.

Another point is while we can stop learning and practicing other conventional skills we cannot [should not] do so with spiritual skills and knowledge which is for life.

Stop worrying so much about enlightenment. Enlightenment is NOT the goal. Helping other people is the goal.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amSurely you understand the brain deteriorates with age or expeditiously in later life. As such there is no guarantee that 'get it' can be sustained in any Zen or spiritual practitioner in later life in cases where for some the brain deteriorates at a greater rate.
But I believe a spiritual practitioner who supplement his spiritual state with knowledge and wisdom intellectually and otherwise will have exercised brain muscles more to sustain his spiritual cognitive faculties longer than one who has not.

Again, there is nothing wrong with doing anything as long as you remain in balance.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amThe problem is you assumed I am merely a beginner and trying to achieve that 'get it' via books only without the necessary practice. I had pointed out I had been on this ongoing spiritual journey for a very long time. And it would be very stupid of me [spiritually] to insist the only way is via reading books with the intellectual approach.

Without knowing the truths of my situation, I suggest you don't jump to conclusion that you have read 10 times the number of books you have in your lifetime or what you read everyday. If I had read 10,000 books that mean you have to prove you have read 100,000 books?

For you there is always a problem! Stop thinking so much and start meditating more. Your problems with attenuate drastically as your wisdom increases.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amBtw, since I took up meditation I have never read any novel nor any book on fictions. What I read is all reality based.

I used to be like that too. Hopefully, you will one day enjoy wonderful novels. Stories are real.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amEarlier you wrote as if there is no need for books and thinking.
If you now agree there are writings in Zen/Buddhism to guide students, then they need to read them and the master [Dogen for example] who wrote the books would prefer his students to read them thoroughly. Note Dogen, as I linked above, also wrote on related philosophical subjects for reflection, not merely guides for his disciples. How come you did not criticized Dogen on this?.

You don't understand Dogen. I said that once you get it, there is no reason to continue reading [on spiritual matters]. I was not speaking of any other types of reading.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amBUT the point is not every Zen student or person has the inclination for reading and serious reading into the Zen writing which can be very complex. Some prefer to just take simply instructions and do whatever is advised.

Zen writing is almost always very complex intellectually...very simple non-intellectually.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amI am sure you can see the similarity with your patients, some will just take your advice and prescriptions with faith while others would prefer to research, read up before making any decisions.

You are mixing the intellectual and the non-intellectual. Those who are able to non-intellectualize their health care are much more adept at deciphering what is needed as they use their wisdom to guide their choices.

Please stick to just a couple of points. I don't have that much time to dedicate to this [generally speaking]. Thanks!

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:29 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:09 pm
I have no problem with anything, particularly intellectual things. You miss my point. I am a physician and have extensive intellectual training. My point is that becoming "aware" allows one to make MUCH better use of what the intellect can actually give you [which is very different than almost everybody thinks]. I am sure I have read ten times the number of books you have and read every day. It is my main source of pleasure [sitting on my porch on a beautiful day with a great novel]. I don't read about spiritual matters anymore because I already did that...

The point is "enlightenment" is not a destination but rather a never ending journey with milestones/stages of progress [of sudden or gradual realizations] along the way.

And you know this because of your readings? Enlightenment is a state of being. Nothing special. Meditation only.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amWhat is most critical for a Physician is extensive intellectual knowledge [continual] but more importantly is continual practice and experience as with any other skills. Thus spiritual skills cannot be the only exception!

It is the exception because it is non-intellectual.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amWhat I understand from your counters is you seem to take 'enlightenment' as a final destination, so thereafter one don't have to read at all.

My point is I don't take 'enlightenment' or 'get it' as a final destination but rather a journey which must be taken with doing [practices] but it is still more effective to continually read and understand to maps and various conditions relevant to that journey to cater for inevitable changes within oneself and the environment.

Another point is while we can stop learning and practicing other conventional skills we cannot [should not] do so with spiritual skills and knowledge which is for life.

Stop worrying so much about enlightenment. Enlightenment is NOT the goal. Helping other people is the goal.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amSurely you understand the brain deteriorates with age or expeditiously in later life. As such there is no guarantee that 'get it' can be sustained in any Zen or spiritual practitioner in later life in cases where for some the brain deteriorates at a greater rate.
But I believe a spiritual practitioner who supplement his spiritual state with knowledge and wisdom intellectually and otherwise will have exercised brain muscles more to sustain his spiritual cognitive faculties longer than one who has not.

Again, there is nothing wrong with doing anything as long as you remain in balance.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amThe problem is you assumed I am merely a beginner and trying to achieve that 'get it' via books only without the necessary practice. I had pointed out I had been on this ongoing spiritual journey for a very long time. And it would be very stupid of me [spiritually] to insist the only way is via reading books with the intellectual approach.

Without knowing the truths of my situation, I suggest you don't jump to conclusion that you have read 10 times the number of books you have in your lifetime or what you read everyday. If I had read 10,000 books that mean you have to prove you have read 100,000 books?

For you there is always a problem! Stop thinking so much and start meditating more. Your problems with attenuate drastically as your wisdom increases.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amBtw, since I took up meditation I have never read any novel nor any book on fictions. What I read is all reality based.

I used to be like that too. Hopefully, you will one day enjoy wonderful novels. Stories are real.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amEarlier you wrote as if there is no need for books and thinking.
If you now agree there are writings in Zen/Buddhism to guide students, then they need to read them and the master [Dogen for example] who wrote the books would prefer his students to read them thoroughly. Note Dogen, as I linked above, also wrote on related philosophical subjects for reflection, not merely guides for his disciples. How come you did not criticized Dogen on this?.

You don't understand Dogen. I said that once you get it, there is no reason to continue reading [on spiritual matters]. I was not speaking of any other types of reading.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amBUT the point is not every Zen student or person has the inclination for reading and serious reading into the Zen writing which can be very complex. Some prefer to just take simply instructions and do whatever is advised.

Zen writing is almost always very complex intellectually...very simple non-intellectually.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 amI am sure you can see the similarity with your patients, some will just take your advice and prescriptions with faith while others would prefer to research, read up before making any decisions.

You are mixing the intellectual and the non-intellectual. Those who are able to non-intellectualize their health care are much more adept at deciphering what is needed as they use their wisdom to guide their choices.

Please stick to just a couple of points. I don't have that much time to dedicate to this [generally speaking]. Thanks!

You are assuming all humans are the same as 'programmed' robots.
You don't seem to understand nor accept the almost 8 billions people on earth have different inclinations, tendencies and proclivities [in different degrees] of their different spiritual paths towards the same ultimate spiritual goal.

The function of spirituality is like function of the generic metabolic process in all humans where humans all over the world produce their food, process, cook and eat their food in different ways in accordance to their inclinations and environment BUT the ultimate purpose is a generic process to provide the essential nutrition to the body and self.

In Hinduism's paths to spirituality, which is also adopted by Buddhism-proper, there are 6 main paths to spirituality to suit people with different inclinations.
One of the more effective path is

• 3. Jnana Yoga
  Jnana yoga is the path of wisdom and knowledge (Jnana), involving disciplined study of scriptures and constant inquiry into the nature of self. Often called the yoga of the mind, Jnana yoga is well suited for the more intellectually inclined.
  https://www.doyou.com/the-6-branches-of-yoga/

We are talking pass each other because you are too dogmatic with your "only-way" thinking just like those of the Abrahamic religionists who are too reliant on faith.

That is my final point on the topic and I am giving it a pass.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm

Age wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:04 am

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:51 am
The methodology of doing philosophy

If, to you, one can DO philosophy, then what, exactly, does the word 'philosophy' actually mean or refer to, to you here?

I've no interest in getting into an argument about what philosophy refers to.

If you SEE that when I just ask you a Truly OPEN CLARIFYING QUESTION, for CLARITY, is "getting into an argument", then you are FAR MORE DISILLUSIONED than I first observed and noticed.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm You do philosophy when you think and write in a philosophical way, using philosophical methodology.

Is it REALLY just to hard and/or complex for you to just inform us of the word 'philosophy' actually means or refers to, to you, EXACTLY?

Before I ask you what is 'a philosophical way', exactly, and does 'using philosophical methodology' mean or refer to, to you, I will WAIT to SEE what the word 'philosophy' even means or refers to, to you.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:26 am

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm

Age wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:04 am

If, to you, one can DO philosophy, then what, exactly, does the word 'philosophy' actually mean or refer to, to you here?

I've no interest in getting into an argument about what philosophy refers to.

If you SEE that when I just ask you a Truly OPEN CLARIFYING QUESTION, for CLARITY, is "getting into an argument", then you are FAR MORE DISILLUSIONED than I first observed and noticed.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm You do philosophy when you think and write in a philosophical way, using philosophical methodology.

Is it REALLY just to hard and/or complex for you to just inform us of the word 'philosophy' actually means or refers to, to you, EXACTLY?

Before I ask you what is 'a philosophical way', exactly, and does 'using philosophical methodology' mean or refer to, to you, I will WAIT to SEE what the word 'philosophy' even means or refers to, to you.

When I write "I've no interest in getting into an argument about what philosophy refers to" I'm not being dishonest. Either you're capable of learning something about how I feel, my preferences, etc. or not. But whether you're capable or not, it's not going to change my disposition that I've no interest in getting into an argument about what philosophy refers to.