Philosophy Now Forum

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:13 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:01 pm Gender is a psycho-social construct based on behavioral norms in a given culture. The problem is having those norms and thinking that anyone should conform to them.

Sex is biological. No matter what your preferences, your behavioral tendencies, etc. are, you're whatever sex you were born as. Gender should be the same as sex, but people are too easily seduced by norms and want to conform to them.

So for example someone born male, who prefers stereotypical female behavior per cultural norms (including cultural norms re appearance) will wind up saying that they're "really a female." But the problem here is the norms, not that someone can be the "wrong gender."

At any rate, I don't have any problem with anyone looking and behaving however they want to look/behave, and I have no problem with anyone wanting to modify their body however they'd like.

This thread is about giving puberty blockers to children without parental consent. I don't care what consenting adults get up to - in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms. What pisses me off is having it shoved in my face all the time - and being told to approve, or else! I don't approve. It's politically correct child abuse!

The abuse is from you.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:00 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:45 pm You never fail to amaze me as to just how wrong you are.
You head if fucked by your prejudice against "leftie PC" conspirators so much that you have invented your won facts.

Oh dear, did I upset you by actually engaging in philosophical debate - rather than drinking down the politically correct kool aid?

It must be upsetting when you're crawling on your belly, and someone else just strolls by!

I get it, but I just can't stoop that low - my intellect forbids it!

QED.
You make my point so well for me.
You even use the terminalogy stright from BREITBART!!
You fucking sheep

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:42 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:39 pmWhat we're talking about here is the social expectations of how people with testes should behave in contrast to those with ovaries.

Exactly. And that's exactly what these imbeciles are perpetuating. THEY are the ones reinforcing stereotypes.

It's a good point, but they're not doing it all by themselves.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:42 pmSo which little political box are you putting me in then? Wow. I'm so 'conservative'.

Well, I wouldn't put you in any political box, but you have what I consider very conservative views about language, specifically English. Living on an island on which you are rarely more than 40 miles from a different accent you get used to people mangling words.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:42 pmMen can dress as they like and look as ridiculous as they want to with their huge hands and big feet in silly, uncomfortable heels....

Absolutely. I'd go so far as to say that people have a right to do to their body whatever they wish; some of them are going to regret it though. The character in the OP now regrets having her breasts removed. It doesn't say at what age she had that procedure, but now says there "wasn't enough investigation or therapy before she reached that stage." Should we prevent adults from choosing all elective surgery, because it won't necessarily make them happy?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:42 pmDo your thing by all means, but keep children out of it...

Yes indeed. Given the range of things that laws protect children from, it does seem odd that puberty blockers should be so freely available, but from the name, I would guess that they are clinically reversible; presumably when you stop taking them, the worst that happens is that puberty begins. Mind you, our heroine started taking the things when she was sixteen, by which time, you wonder how much puberty there was left to block.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:45 pm You never fail to amaze me as to just how wrong you are.
You head if fucked by your prejudice against "leftie PC" conspirators so much that you have invented your won facts.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:00 pmOh dear, did I upset you by actually engaging in philosophical debate - rather than drinking down the politically correct kool aid?

It must be upsetting when you're crawling on your belly, and someone else just strolls by!

I get it, but I just can't stoop that low - my intellect forbids it!

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:35 pm QED.
You make my point so well for me.
You even use the terminalogy stright from BREITBART!!
You fucking sheep

That's basically my comment translated into lefty!

The key difference is that brietbart don't force their opinions on anyone; such that, even if I were expressing opinions from them - I would have chosen to do so.

The left do force their opinions on people - and you haven't the courage to say no!

MP Rosie Duffield tried forming her own opinion, and look what that got her!

JK Rowling tried forming her own opinion, and look where that got her!

You didn't even try!

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:33 pm
"Too easily seduced by norms?"

"Norms" don't "seduce." They express the norm. That means the normal. As you said above, it's normal that sex and gender are identical. It's abnormal when somebody tries to separate them.

What we have to do is to account for that abnormality. And that's fairly easily done: it's a failure to grasp reality. It's like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pInQYjtfGs

But "seducing" is what parents do when they convince a pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones because the parent wants to feel "open-minded"; which is the only true rationale behind harming a child in this way.

I thought it a shame that your post was buried at the end of the previous page so I reproduced it.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:14 pm ...I reproduced it.

Thank you. Very kind.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:14 pm ...I reproduced it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:22 pmThank you. Very kind.

Well, it's a good comment buried by Sculptor's nonsense. I particularly agree with this:

'But "seducing" is what parents do when they convince a pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones because the parent wants to feel "open-minded"; which is the only true rationale behind harming a child in this way.'

It helps that it's actually on topic, or almost, because things is - as a consequence of the decision in the case of Keria Bell, parents don't have the last word, and what I initially thought was 'making mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care' gains a different aspect in the light of your remarks. One I must admit I hadn't considered. i.e. the parent is the problem!

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:35 pm ...as a consequence of the decision in the case of Keria Bell, parents don't have the last word, and what I initially thought was 'making mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care' gains a different aspect in light by your remarks. One I must admit I hadn't considered.

Hmmm...

Oh, that's absolutely true, I would say.

An eight-year-old girl who says, "I think I'm a boy," or a ten-year-old boy who says, "Maybe I'm a girl" is doing exactly what children do: they try out identities, and they project possibilities on the world through imagination, and see what sticks. It's part of their development, their sorting the world out, their growth. And they need reliable feedback from the world as to what is reasonable, possible and likely to be true. That's very normal.

If they get confused signals coming back, they become confused and double down on their fantasies, until something they can believe comes back to them. Morally, we owe them a set of good signals.

Unfortunately, parents who are narcissistically-inclined, or who are fearful of the difficulty of helping a confused or dysmorphic child negotiate reality, prefer to virtue-signal their own "tolerant" nature by reinforcing bad ideas in their children. And like the ancient parents who sacrificed their children to the fiery god Molech by throwing them into the arms of a molten idol, they throw their children into the burning arms of the "toleration" idol, thus proving their own piety and devotion, but immolating their children in the process.

And doctors do it too. Some are also virtue-signallers. Some are themselves idiologically-possessed. Some worry what their colleagues and professional colleges will do if they step out of line. Others have become fearful of contradicting the gender-transition narrative, and can simply avoid getting sued, by capitulating to the parents or to the fantasies of the child. The media loves the fantasy, because it's salacious, sexy, and gets into the liberation narratives of total freedom and choice, all of which raise public interest and impress advertisers. So everybody just goes along with it, and it's children like Kiera Bell who pay the ultimate price for the craven, self-admiring, lazy or virtue-signalling conduct of the older generation.

It's our job to help children come to grips with truth. If we don't, we're failing to raise them in a way that is functional and healthy for them. And one of the truly irresistible facts of our birth is the fact of two sexes.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:13 pm I don't care what consenting adults get up to - in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms. What pisses me off is having it shoved in my face all the time - and being told to approve, or else!

You should be able to let people do their own thing publicly, too. That doesn't mean that you have to "approve" of it, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of, and they'll return the favor (re things you do that they don't approve of).

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:19 pm

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:13 pm I don't care what consenting adults get up to - in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms. What pisses me off is having it shoved in my face all the time - and being told to approve, or else!

You should be able to let people do their own thing publicly, too.

Not necessarily. Not all actions and alternatives are fit for public viewing. We don't urinate in public. Marital activites are largely not a public concern. Sexuality has a few public aspects, but the majority of it is not a legitimate public concern. (As one PM put it, "Government has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.")

"Doing one's own thing" must be governed by discernment, respect for one's own privacy and respect for the public's legitimate will to know.

There's no reason I owe anybody else to approve of his/her sexuality. What, would they change if I withheld it? No, of course not. So they have no claim on my opinion, and it has no relevance to what they will do. The public does not owe anyone to approve of their private sexual conduct. It's free to have its own opinion.

But none of this has to do with children. They aren't at an age of maturity of knowlege. They may be confused as to "what they are" until their bodies have properly formed, and their normal socialization is complete. And in this, the public plays a role; for public recognition of the sex-traits of a child are an important source of information as the child negotiates his/her sexual development. We do owe children to give them good signals. And a good signal is one that helps them recognize their biological reality.

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:35 pm...I particularly agree with this:

'But "seducing" is what parents do when they convince a pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones because the parent wants to feel "open-minded"; which is the only true rationale behind harming a child in this way.'

It helps that it's actually on topic, or almost, because things is - as a consequence of the decision in the case of Keria Bell, parents don't have the last word, and what I initially thought was 'making mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care' gains a different aspect in the light of your remarks. One I must admit I hadn't considered. i.e. the parent is the problem!

Why on earth should you consider that parents convince their "pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones"? Do you have any evidence of parents doing this? If it were true that "the parent is the problem", would it not be better that "parents don't have the last word"?

Nothing, except that a baboon girl like to cuddle and play with what appears to be a young lving thing.
Baboons have even been known to nurture lion cubs, and we all know about female dogs rearing kittens and baby rabbits.
Whatever the innate tendancies for a female they can cross species bondaries and don't give a fuck about social or religious "norms".

So what? That doesn't mean that female baboons who don't want to play with dolls are actually boys. It just means they are female baboons who don't happen to want to play with dolls for fuck sake.

My daughter had a friend at school who insisted on only wearing 'boy' clothes and had no interest in dolls. A fuckwit woke parent would have had her on hormone treatments. Luckily it was before all this social meadia-driven bullshit and her parents just let her be herself. If she had been fed unscientific garbage like the quoted post then she would likely have believed that she was a boy and asked for hormone treatnment (something that children shouldn't even be aware of). She's actually grown up to be the opposite, almost what you would calll 'ultra feminine'. I've known a several children like that. Even if she had grown up to be a masculine woman, that would have made her a masculine woman, not a MAN.

The wokie position is rife with contradictions. On the one hand they claim that gender is a 'fluid' social construct and that you can be any gender you want to be or 'feel like', yet on the other hand they are citing baboons as proof that if we don't conform with gender stereotypes then we must have the 'wrong body'. Make up your brain cell.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:02 pm The wokie position is rife with contradictions. On the one hand they claim that gender is a 'fluid' social construct and that you can be any gender you want to be or 'feel like', yet on the other hand they are citing baboons as proof that if we don't conform with gender stereotypes then we must have the 'wrong body'. Make up your brain cell.

It sure is rife with contradictions.

Here's another: how does a boy know he "feels like" he's a girl? How does he know that what he's feeling is what a real girl feels? How does a girl know she feels like a boy?

She's never been one: so how does she know that what she's feeling is "like a boy"? How do we know that all trans-claimants are not talking about feeling like a boy imagining himself being a girl would feel, and a girl is not really talking about how a girl imagines boy life might be, but is not? How do we know their impressions have anything at all of the reality of being a boy or girl about them?

Aren't we told daily, "You wouldn't understand, because you're a man"? Aren't we told, "Women's experience is unique"? If it's so impossible for grown people of opposite sex to understand each other with perfect precision, how do we suddenly know that eight-year-olds can do it, and do it perfectly?

We don't. We have no way to know. We're all (that is, the woke set) just taking for granted that when a boy says he "feels like a girl" that he cannot possibly be wrong or mistaken about what that actually is like. Nobody is ever mistaken, is the assumption: what you feel, that's always it. No boy ever said "I feel like I'm a girl," and was wrong, apparently. No girl ever said, "I feel like a boy" and had a feeling that wasn't accurate to what real boys feel.

What's more, those feelings are never bad, are never correctable, and never err from the truth.

Really?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:16 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:02 pm The wokie position is rife with contradictions. On the one hand they claim that gender is a 'fluid' social construct and that you can be any gender you want to be or 'feel like', yet on the other hand they are citing baboons as proof that if we don't conform with gender stereotypes then we must have the 'wrong body'. Make up your brain cell.

It sure is rife with contradictions.

Here's another: how does a boy know he "feels like" he's a girl? How does he know that what he's feeling is what a real girl feels? How does a girl know she feels like a boy?

She's never been one: so how does she know that what she's feeling is "like a boy"? How do we know that all trans-claimants are not talking about feeling like a boy imagining himself being a girl would feel, and a girl is not really talking about how a girl imagines boy life might be, but is not? How do we know their impressions have anything at all of the reality of being a boy or girl about them?

Aren't we told daily, "You wouldn't understand, because you're a man"? Aren't we told, "Women's experience is unique"? If it's so impossible for grown people of opposite sex to understand each other with perfect precision, how do we suddenly know that eight-year-olds can do it, and do it perfectly?

We don't. We have no way to know. We're all (that is, the woke set) just taking for granted that when a boy says he "feels like a girl" that he cannot possibly be wrong or mistaken about what that actually is like. Nobody is ever mistaken, is the assumption: what you feel, that's always it. No boy ever said "I feel like I'm a girl," and was wrong, apparently. No girl ever said, "I feel like a boy" and had a feeling that wasn't accurate to what real boys feel.

What's more, those feelings are never bad, are never correctable, and never err from the truth.

Really?

No one knows what it 'feels like'. I don't know what other women 'feel like'. Normal people don't even think about it which is just one of the reasons why it's so dangerous to fill children's heads with this crap.

The irony is that it used to only be radical feminists who claimed that gender was merely a 'social construct'.
Now it's the genuine feminists who are calling out the wokists on their bullshit and misogyny.
And predictably, dangerous predators have joined the party. You only have to look at the extreme misogyny that's rife in the world of the radical 'trans' movement. In fact they don't even align themselves with women, contemptuously giving actual women the label of 'ciswomen', so clearly they don't 'feel like women' at all.
If any of it was scientific then it would make sense and there would be no confusion or contraditions. It's like when people tie themselves into knots with the lies they tell. That's doesn't happen when you tell the truth.