Philosophy Now Forum

socrat44 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:21 pm Learning to Live in Steven Weinberg’s Pointless Universe
The late physicist’s most infamous statement still beguiles scientists and vexes believers
/ By Dan Falk on July 27, 2021 /
-----------------..
“The more the universe seems comprehensible,” he wrote,
“the more it also seems pointless.”
---------..
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... SQ92nhLQL4
------------..
Why the universe is pointless for us?
Because we ignore the fact that the “big bang” can be started
only in the infinite Cosmic Vacuum
---------------..

If you have a point of view, the universe may be pointless but are you?

Electrons do not rotate or oscillate in atoms on their own. Even their spin is not spontaneous. Such movement is maintained by the "wind of time", by the general movement of “stem cells" of physical space/aether from the future to the present; something like pinwheels…

Cerveny wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:58 am Electrons do not rotate or oscillate in atoms on their own. Even their spin is not spontaneous. Such movement is maintained by the "wind of time", by the general movement of “stem cells" of physical space/aether from the future to the present; something like pinwheels…

Sorry, it should probably have belonged to the spin thread :(

socrat44 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:54 am Does The Singularity Exist?

Singularity is a point in spacetime where incredible amount of matter is compressed into a tiny space of zero size and infinite density.
But, the question is, ” Does it exist?”

Singularity is not a physical object, it is a mathematical entity. It arises when the denominator is zero. We all know we cannot divide by zero, so that’s a problem and mathematicians call that value singularity. If a singularity popes up in an equation, it means that the equation has been to make predictions in areas where it doesn’t cover like using Newton’s Gravitational Equation to describe a black hole.

General Relativity fails at the quantum scale and needs to be replaced by Quantum Theory of Gravity which we don’t have.

https://knowledgeglutton.home.blog/2021 ... comment-21

Infinity is a possibility. Therefore it exists.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:31 pm Infinity is a possibility. Therefore it exists.

Scientific motto: "If you get infinity (∞) in an equation, it's usually a sign that you've made a mistake."
So, by the scientific view, the concept “infinity” is a mistake in theory
because parameter “infinity” cannot belong to the universe.
#
Theoretical physicists think humans are screwing up the universe’s plan
/ STORY BY Tristan Greene /
https://thenextweb.com/news/theoretical ... erses-plan

socrat44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:52 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:31 pm Infinity is a possibility. Therefore it exists.

Scientific motto: "If you get infinity (∞) in an equation, it's usually a sign that you've made a mistake."
So, by the scientific view, the concept “infinity” is a mistake in theory
because parameter “infinity” cannot belong to the universe.
#
Theoretical physicists think humans are screwing up the universe’s plan
/ STORY BY Tristan Greene /
https://thenextweb.com/news/theoretical ... erses-plan

I strongly agree… I believe that instead of questionable singularity, there was a certain phase transition at the beginning…

socrat44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:52 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:31 pm Infinity is a possibility. Therefore it exists.

Scientific motto: "If you get infinity (∞) in an equation, it's usually a sign that you've made a mistake."
So, by the scientific view, the concept “infinity” is a mistake in theory
because parameter “infinity” cannot belong to the universe.
#
Theoretical physicists think humans are screwing up the universe’s plan
/ STORY BY Tristan Greene /
https://thenextweb.com/news/theoretical ... erses-plan

The universe itself is infinite.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm The universe itself is infinite.

Says who?

How is the universe infinite?
_______

Is space infinite?
We asked 5 experts
August 11, 2021
----
One expert: Maybe,
The short answer is we don’t know.
(depends on the Big Bang)

Second expert: Yes
I believe so.
We know the universe had a beginning with the Big Bang.
. . . but "actually eternal inflation — rendering the universe infinite."

Third expert: Yes
“ . . . , to my thinking,
an infinite universe becomes easier to imagine than a finite one.”

Forth expert: No
But there's another way for space to be finite. It could be a torus,
which is spatially finite but edge-free, like a cosmic donut.

Fifth expert: No
We know that space, the universe, had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago.
. . . therefore I would propose that at some stage my spaceship voyage will reach an end.
https://thecoexpertnversation.com/is-sp ... rts-165742
------

Is the universe infinite?
Does the cosmos go on forever, or is outer space finite?
Explore this age-old question.
By Korey Haynes | Published: Tuesday, March 3, 2020
---.
" . . . we know the universe isn’t infinitely old —
we know the Big Bang occurred some 13.8 billion years ago."

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/03/is-t ... e-infinite
-----

All experts base their reasoning on big-bang and it effect

Sep 17, 2020,
If The Big Bang Wasn’t The Beginning, What Was It?
/ by Ethan Siegel /
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... a5e4435819

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:41 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm The universe itself is infinite.

Says who?

How is the universe infinite?
_______

Consider that the universe is finite. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call it A. A is either finite or infinite. The sum of the universe and A is infinite if A is infinite. We have a regress if A is finite. Regress is infinite. Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:41 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm The universe itself is infinite.

Says who?

How is the universe infinite?
_______

Consider that the universe is finite. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call it A. A is either finite or infinite. The sum of the universe and A is infinite if A is infinite. We have a regress if A is finite. Regress is infinite. Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.

The universe is indeed bounded by something.

It is bounded (or delineated) by the limited amount of substance that makes up the sum-total of its construction - as is implied in the following type of (Big Bang inspired) illustration...



In which case, the only thing that is "infinite" in this situation is not the universe itself, but the infinite "nothingness" that extends in all directions away from the "finite" somethingness of what we commonly think of as being the universe.

Furthermore, there is a huge difference between this unequivocal proclamation...

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm The universe itself is infinite.

...that you offered to socrat44, and that of this amended proclamation...

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.

...that you offered to me, which pretty much nullifies the certainty with which you offered your initial proclamation to socrat44.

The bottom line is that, NO, the universe - in and of itself - is not "infinite."
_______

socrat44 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:17 pm Is space infinite?
We asked 5 experts
August 11, 2021
----
One expert: Maybe,
The short answer is we don’t know.
(depends on the Big Bang)

Second expert: Yes
I believe so.
We know the universe had a beginning with the Big Bang.
. . . but "actually eternal inflation — rendering the universe infinite."

Third expert: Yes
“ . . . , to my thinking,
an infinite universe becomes easier to imagine than a finite one.”

Forth expert: No
But there's another way for space to be finite. It could be a torus,
which is spatially finite but edge-free, like a cosmic donut.

Fifth expert: No
We know that space, the universe, had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago.
. . . therefore I would propose that at some stage my spaceship voyage will reach an end.
https://thecoexpertnversation.com/is-sp ... rts-165742
------

Is the universe infinite?
Does the cosmos go on forever, or is outer space finite?
Explore this age-old question.
By Korey Haynes | Published: Tuesday, March 3, 2020
---.
" . . . we know the universe isn’t infinitely old —
we know the Big Bang occurred some 13.8 billion years ago."

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/03/is-t ... e-infinite
-----

All experts base their reasoning on big-bang and it effect

Sep 17, 2020,
If The Big Bang Wasn’t The Beginning, What Was It?
/ by Ethan Siegel /
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... a5e4435819

As I suggested to bahman, the only thing that is truly infinite (aside from some abstract vision of numbers) is the infinite "nothingness" that extends in all directions away from the finite somethingness that we normally think of as being a universe.



However, if we introduce yet another "expert" to your list of experts - one who considers the possibility that the universe could be the MIND of a higher consciousness (i.e., "God"), then the inner-context of this higher mind could indeed "seem" to be both infinite and finite at the same time.

To understand what I mean by that, close your eyes and try to envision the outer boundary of your own mind.

Now, of course, you won't be able to see anything.

Nevertheless, theoretically, you could travel in any direction within your mind and you would never encounter a wall or a boundary that would limit how far you could go.

Yet, logically, your mind is bounded by the finite amount of substance that makes up the sum-total of your being, which is something that only came into existence just a few years ago.

And my point is that if the universe is indeed the mind of a higher Consciousness, then just like what would occur within your own mind, no matter how far you go in any direction within the universe, you will never encounter a wall or a boundary.

For example, if you took-off in a spaceship in search of the outer-boundary of the universe, and it was a ship that was somehow able to travel faster than light, then no matter which direction you aim the ship, it would simply be a situation where the ship itself literally becomes the ever-extending outer-boundary of the universe of which the ship could never move beyond (for obvious reasons).

Thus, in that way, the universe would seem to be infinite in size from the perspective of the boundary seeker, yet (in truth), it is a closed dimension of reality by reason of the fact that it is nothing more than a singular mind (pretty much like our own mind) that is bounded by the limited (finite) amount of substance that makes up the sum-total of God's being.

In other words, in the exact same way that the mental image of that ship could never cross a boundary in your mind in such a way that would allow it to exit your mind and exist independent of you,...

...likewise, neither can a so-called "real" ship cross the outer-boundary of this universe (the mind of God) in a way that would allow it to exist outside and independent of God.

However, I suggest that that only applies to the "material" phenomena of the universe and not to the phenomena of the lower minds and souls (us) that are momentarily held within it.

Be it truth or nonsense, I am a strong believer in the idea that the mind/soul can (and will) exit the universe at the moment of what we call death.
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:32 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:41 pm
Says who?

How is the universe infinite?
_______

Consider that the universe is finite. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call it A. A is either finite or infinite. The sum of the universe and A is infinite if A is infinite. We have a regress if A is finite. Regress is infinite. Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.

The universe is indeed bounded by something.

It is bounded (or delineated) by the limited amount of substance that makes up the sum-total of its construction - as is implied in the following type of (Big Bang inspired) illustration...



In which case, the only thing that is "infinite" in this situation is not the universe itself, but the infinite "nothingness" that extends in all directions away from the "finite" somethingness of what we commonly think of as being the universe.

Furthermore, there is a huge difference between this unequivocal proclamation...

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm The universe itself is infinite.

...that you offered to socrat44, and that of this amended proclamation...

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.

...that you offered to me, which pretty much nullifies the certainty with which you offered your initial proclamation to socrat44.

The bottom line is that, NO, the universe - in and of itself - is not "infinite."
_______

How do you define the word 'Universe', "seeds"?

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:33 am And my point is that if the universe is indeed the mind of a higher Consciousness, . . .
. . .
However, I suggest that that only applies to the "material" phenomena of the universe and
not to the phenomena of the lower minds and souls (us) that are momentarily held within it.

Be it truth or nonsense, I am a strong believer in the idea that the mind/soul can
(and will) exit the universe at the moment of what we call death.
_______

The Universe Is a Machine That Keeps Learning, Scientists Say
Basically, we live in one giant algorithm.
/ by CAROLINE DELBERT, APR 14, 2021 /
---.
New research suggests the universe is teaching itself physics as it evolves.
The researchers want to use this study to spin off a whole new area of cosmology research.
The “learning” of the universe is similar to evolution.
. . . . .
“Does something have to have consciousness in order to learn?
“If laws can evolve, then they can do more: We consider the notion that only a universe
that learns its laws can be expected to engender novel phenomena like life and physicists.”
---.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... algorithm/


"The Universe is something Conscious."
/Hermeticism/

‘’In general, the universe seems to me to be nearer to a great thought than to a great machine.’’
/ James Jeans /

''[T]he laws of quantum mechanics itself cannot be formulated ...
without recourse to the concept of consciousness.''
/Eugene Wigner, the Nobel Prize in 1963/

"Quantum physics makes a strong argument for universal consciousness.”
--------------.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:32 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:41 pm
Says who?

How is the universe infinite?
_______

Consider that the universe is finite. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call it A. A is either finite or infinite. The sum of the universe and A is infinite if A is infinite. We have a regress if A is finite. Regress is infinite. Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.

The universe is indeed bounded by something.

It is bounded (or delineated) by the limited amount of substance that makes up the sum-total of its construction - as is implied in the following type of (Big Bang inspired) illustration...



In which case, the only thing that is "infinite" in this situation is not the universe itself, but the infinite "nothingness" that extends in all directions away from the "finite" somethingness of what we commonly think of as being the universe.

Furthermore, there is a huge difference between this unequivocal proclamation...

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm The universe itself is infinite.

...that you offered to socrat44, and that of this amended proclamation...

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.

...that you offered to me, which pretty much nullifies the certainty with which you offered your initial proclamation to socrat44.

The bottom line is that, NO, the universe - in and of itself - is not "infinite."
_______

Did you understand my argument? What is the black area in the figure?