Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:16 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:15 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:13 pm

I'd have to go step by step over some very simple things.

For example:

Joe thinks, "I ought to pay my taxes."

Does this have an implication for Frank and whether he ought to pay his taxes or not?

Hypothesis A: It has an implication.
Hypothesis B: It doesn't have an implication.

What measurement/test/verification do you suggest we perform to distinguish which of the two universes we exist in.

If you don't have an idea already whether it has an implication, then it wouldn't make much sense that you'd argue that it does.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:18 pm If you don't have an idea already whether it has an implication, then it wouldn't make much sense that you'd argue that it does.

Wow! The irony!

I DO have an idea (whereas, you don't). Which is precisely why I suggested an experiment! Stop paying your taxes!

If you are right then your choice will have no implication.

And I am suggesting the experiment because I know PRECISELY the kind of implication one ought to expect to observe given your kind of stupid.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:21 pm I DO have an idea. Which is precisely why I suggested an experiment! Stop paying your taxes!

Again, let's say that if you don't pay your taxes you're imprisoned.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:22 pm Again, let's say that if you don't pay your taxes you're imprisoned.

Yes. That's precisely an implication.

So which universe are we in? A or B?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:22 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:22 pm Again, let's say that if you don't pay your taxes you're imprisoned.

Lets not talk about it. Just stop paying your taxes.

I'm trying to explain this to you. Let's say that it's the case that if you don't pay your taxes you're imprisoned.

Now, should Frank pay his taxes? Or should Frank not pay his taxes?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:23 pm I'm trying to explain this to you. Let's say that it's the case that if you don't pay your taxes you're imprisoned.

Now, should Frank pay his taxes? Or should Frank not pay his taxes?

What does this have to do with anyting? Frank can do whatever the fuck Frank wants to do - he has free will over his choices, not over the implications of his choices.

Going to prison is an implication of not paying your taxes.

So which universe are we in? A or B?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:24 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:23 pm I'm trying to explain this to you. Let's say that it's the case that if you don't pay your taxes you're imprisoned.

Now, should Frank pay his taxes? Or should Frank not pay his taxes?

What does this have to do with anyting?

Going to prison is an implication of not paying your taxes.

So which universe are we in? A or B?

When we're talking about normatives, we're talking about what people should or ought to do. Such as Frank. Should Frank pay his taxes or should Frank not pay his taxes. That's the whole gist of normatives. Otherwise we're talking about something else.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:25 pm When we're talking about normatives, we're talking about what people should or ought to do. Such as Frank. Should Frank pay his taxes or should Frank not pay his taxes. That's the whole gist of normatives. Otherwise we're talking about something else.

You have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about.

In Universe A Frank should pay his taxes.
in Universe B Frank should not pay his taxes.

What sort of measurement do you propose so we can determine which universe we are in?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:26 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:25 pm When we're talking about normatives, we're talking about what people should or ought to do. Such as Frank. Should Frank pay his taxes or should Frank not pay his taxes. That's the whole gist of normatives. Otherwise we're talking about something else.

In Universe A Frank should pay his taxes.

Based on what? What if Frank prefers to go to prision?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:27 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:26 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:25 pm When we're talking about normatives, we're talking about what people should or ought to do. Such as Frank. Should Frank pay his taxes or should Frank not pay his taxes. That's the whole gist of normatives. Otherwise we're talking about something else.

In Universe A Frank should pay his taxes.

Based on what? What if Frank prefers to go to prision?

You missed 50% of my response you filthy fucking cherry-picker.

In Universe A Frank should pay his taxes.
in Universe B Frank should not pay his taxes.

In Universe A Frank should pay his taxes based on whatever fucking argument/reasons Frank comes up with.
In Universe B Frank should not pay his taxes based on whatever fucking argument/reasons Frank comes up with.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:28 pm In Universe A Frank should pay his taxes.
in Universe B Frank should not pay his taxes.

In Universe A Frank should pay his taxes based on whatever fucking argument/reasons Frank comes up with.
In Universe B Frank should not pay his taxes based on whatever fucking argument/reasons Frank comes up with.

Are we talking about whether he'll go to prison if he doesn't pay his taxes, or whether the mere fact that Joe thinks that "I ought to pay my taxes" (and only that fact) has an implication for Frank?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:33 pm Are we talking about whether he'll go to prison if he doesn't pay his taxes, or whether the mere fact that Joe thinks that "I ought to pay my taxes" (and only that fact) has an implication for Frank?

I have no idea what YOU are talking about when you speak of "ought implications"!

The concept is incoherent to me. That's why I am asking you to tell me what YOU are talking about.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:34 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:33 pm Are we talking about whether he'll go to prison if he doesn't pay his taxes, or whether the mere fact that Joe thinks that "I ought to pay my taxes" (and only that fact) has an implication for Frank?

I have no idea what YOU are talking about when you speak of "ought implications"!

The concept is incoherent to me. That's why I am asking you to tell me what YOU are talking about.

If it's incoherent to you, then probably we'd agree that the mere fact that Joe thinks that "I ought to pay my taxes" doesn't imply anything for what Frank should do, because we don't even know how that could make sense.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:36 pm If it's incoherent to you, then probably we'd agree that the mere fact that Joe thinks that "I ought to pay my taxes" doesn't imply anything for what Frank should do, because we don't even know how that could make sense.

No! I don't agree. And I don't disagree.

There is a universe in which you ought to pay your taxes; and a universe in which you ought not pay your taxes?

How would you determine which universe YOU find yourself in?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:39 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:36 pm If it's incoherent to you, then probably we'd agree that the mere fact that Joe thinks that "I ought to pay my taxes" doesn't imply anything for what Frank should do, because we don't even know how that could make sense.

No! I don't agree. And I don't disagree.

There is a universe in which you ought to pay your taxes; and a universe in which you ought not pay your taxes?

How would you determine which universe YOU find yourself in?

There are different universes?