Philosophy Now Forum

I C

The Bible says that the "animal knowledge" is enough to tell a man that God exists (Romans 1, for instance); but it denies that this gives mankind the ability to know God relationally. And the two are clearly quite different.

Quite true. This is the human condition. We may know God but do not understand God. Understanding is defined by what we do as Paul describes in Romans 7 and why he called himself the wretched Man.

Without the New Birth, Man remains as he is. He lacks the vertical psychological direction experienced by the New Birth. What strikes me is all the contempt shown for the potential of the New Birth. This is why Jesus had to be killed. There is something about all this hatred I don’t understand. It is natural in the world and has become natural for philosophy as with philosophy sites. I’ve read this is why the alarm clock is the most hated mechanism. Sleep is so peaceful and this machine that makes you wake up must be thrown against the wall. It is the same with the Christian awakening influence. It must be destroyed. It disturbs the peace.

Ah, no...it's not "inner." That is not what Christianity teaches. It's an externally-induced change in the inner man; again, quite a different thing. The agent of it is God, not the inherent self-illuminative potential of animal man....of which he really has none, so far as spiritual things are concerned.

Here is where you lose me. Does the outer man influence the inner man or does the revelation experienced the the inner man influence the outer Man?

The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God. Meister Eckhart

New Birth for me is the first experience of the God seed within us. How does one nourish it and effect the outer habitual animal Man rather than feeling egoistically important when the world is against it?

False prophets make a lot of money while the real prophet is crucified. What about the message of the false prophet which is so inviting? Doesn't he say all the right things and wear ALL the right clothes?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:59 pm There is something about all this hatred I don’t understand.

"The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed." (John 3:18-20)

Ah, no...it's not "inner." That is not what Christianity teaches. It's an externally-induced change in the inner man; again, quite a different thing. The agent of it is God, not the inherent self-illuminative potential of animal man....of which he really has none, so far as spiritual things are concerned.

Here is where you lose me. Does the outer man influence the inner man or does the revelation experienced the the inner man influence the outer Man?

It's not a "revelation," and it doesn't come either from the "inner" or the "outer" man. The new birth is from God; and it's not merely a "revelation," but a "regeneration." It's a change of state, not just a change in thinking.

The seed of God is in us.

Actually, it is not. We are, as Paul says, "dead in trespasses and sins." (Eph. 2:1) Dead things do not have life in them. That's the implication of the new birth. It means not that we "give birth" to ourselves, as if we already have the potential latent inside us, but that God reconstitutes us as sons of God. So it's not a sort of change of animal state: it's a production of new life where there was none before.

That's why Jesus said, "You must be born again." There is no way but the new birth that anybody, ever gets to "know" God. They can know He exists, and even know some facts about Him (Romans 1). But they do not know God. To know God, one has to enter into a relationship with Him, not merely accumulate information.

I C

Ah, no...it's not "inner." That is not what Christianity teaches. It's an externally-induced change in the inner man; again, quite a different thing. The agent of it is God, not the inherent self-illuminative potential of animal man....of which he really has none, so far as spiritual things are concerned.

I’ve read the human organism described as like an acorn. The outer part or the husk protects the seed or the living part of the acorn that can become an oak. If it finds favorable soil, doesn’t die, or is not eaten, it has the potential to break free of the husk and grow to finally become an oak tree.

The outer man is our personality. It is spiritually dead and is like the husk of the acorn which protects us. Sometimes a person through life experiences and comes to realize he is not his personality. They are two different things. He is born with his essence while his personality is artificially created by his reactions to family and society. I think Yeats once wrote “I am trapped in the body of a dying animal.” The dying animal is our personality.

Secular idolatry only effects our personality. It is the dead talking to the dead. Christianity as I understand it refers to the inner Man. It contains the seed of the soul. It is this seed which can be born again. It is is not just born of woman but can also be born of living water and and made possible by the Spirit

John 3:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[

As I understand it, water in biblical terms is one of three qualities of truth: Stone, water, and wine. Stone refers to a quality of truth that only reaches the personality. The ten commandments etched in stone is an example. Jesus meets the Samaritan woman in John 4

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Jesus is referring to living water that touches the inner man.

Changing water into wine is giving the deep spiritual truth of the living water to the inner man of another.

It's not a "revelation," and it doesn't come either from the "inner" or the "outer" man. The new birth is from God; and it's not merely a "revelation," but a "regeneration." It's a change of state, not just a change in thinking.

A person can have a revelation through scripture as with noesis for example but the New Birth arouses and regenerates the seed of the soul. It enables the healthy kernel of life in the acorn to drop off or a person to become free of defending their personality. It is the freedom from opinion in the direction of truth.

Actually, it is not. We are, as Paul says, "dead in trespasses and sins." (Eph. 2:1) Dead things do not have life in them. That's the implication of the new birth. It means not that we "give birth" to ourselves, as if we already have the potential latent inside us, but that God reconstitutes us as sons of God. So it's not a sort of change of animal state: it's a production of new life where there was none before.

True but the seed of the soul through abuse can become warped or even prematurely die. But as long as we are governed by our personality, we are dead to spiritual life. But either way, without the help of the Spirit, Man has no inner future.

This raises a question for me concerning St. Paul. We all know he killed Christians. He wasn’t born again but on the road to Damascus

Acts 9

9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

If Paul were not alive on the inside conversion would be impossible. A lot of Paul striking out is what I see in the world. It indicates an inner need for something blocked and not understood. Paul wasn’t dead, but just covering up and the intensity of his denial proves his need. Does that make sense to you?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:07 am I’ve read the human organism described as like an acorn.

It must have been by a "nut."

Just kidding. Pun. That's all.

No, that's not a good analogy. Acorns already have inside them the potential to become a tree. But human beings do not have their own potential to become sons of God. Some are just "children of wrath," as Ephesians 2 says of all those "dead in trespasses and sins." Then it goes on:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Eph. 2:4-10)

Salvation is a gift. You don't have the gift already. It's something given to you by Someone else. And you can't do anything to pay for it, because it's free; and if it's not, then it's not a gift.

It is is not just born of woman but can also be born of living water and and made possible by the Spirit.

If you believe this, then you can't believe it's born of some potential latent inside you already. If it's by you, then it's not a gift, and not of the Spirit. It's available from the flesh, then, because all flesh already has it latent in it.

Jesus meets the Samaritan woman in John 4

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Jesus is referring to living water that touches the inner man.

Yes. But notice that the woman doesn't have the living water. It has to be given to her, by Christ.

If Paul were not alive on the inside conversion would be impossible.

This isn't the case. It's not because Paul is already secretly a good guy the he is converted. At the time, he's engaged in rounding up, beating and jailing Christians. He's on his way to do more of it, in fact: that's why he's going to Damascus. He's converted because of the direct intervention of God -- no other reason. Afterward, he referred to himself as a man saved from being "the chief of sinners."

What you may be intuiting was that Paul was already feeling guilty. That's different from being repentant; he was still going to arrest Christians in Damascus. That's why the Lord says to him, "Is it not hard for you to kick against the goads (ie.sharp sticks used to prod animals: see Acts 26:14)?" Paul had an inflamed conscience from the time of Stephen's murder, I suggest; but it was expressed as rage and hatred, rather than as anything that leads to salvation. He had to be stopped by a direct act of God....not an experience that you and I can easily generalize to others.

After all, other men were saved with no such dramatics. Consider Matthew, for example, or Bartholomew: both came with minimal effort. They simply responded to Christ's offer. Even Peter and John came relatively easily, on the heels of the miracle of the fishes, but with no Damascus road incident.

I C

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Eph. 2:4-10)

Salvation is a gift. You don't have the gift already. It's something given to you by Someone else. And you can't do anything to pay for it, because it's free; and if it's not, then it's not a gift.

We agree that salvation cannot come to the earthly animal. Its evolution is complete so follows the cycle of dust to dust. Salvation is a gift but is it the gift to animal man or a gift to the soul of man? The essential question for me necessary to understand what this means asks what is the human soul? Buddhism for example asserts man has no soul while modern Christianity asserts a fully developed soul. I believe that a human being contains the seed of a soul in various qualities. This seed has different origins. The seed of the elect was for example from the beginning.

John 8

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Abraham was born before Jesus yet Jesus was I AM before Abraham. What is the human soul and how can it be understood giving meaning and purpose to human existence?

Genesis 2

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Does this living being have a soul and what is it? Is it necessary for animal life or only necessary to receive the gift of salvation or the results of being born again? Can a person lose their soul?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:42 pm We agree that salvation cannot come to the earthly animal. Its evolution is complete so follows the cycle of dust to dust. Salvation is a gift but is it the gift to animal man or a gift to the soul of man?

To both. The body of man is resurrected, and the soul of man is purged of sin. But both are actions of God, not something from the inherent properties of man.

That's why it's called "new birth," or being "born again." (The better translation is actually "born-from-above," by the way.) It's not a mere offshoot of the old life; it's a radical reconstruction by God Himself. Nothing less than that is "the new birth."

What is the human soul and how can it be understood giving meaning and purpose to human existence?

Two questions you ask. The answers are, "I have ideas, but I don't really know," and "It doesn't."

Can a person lose their soul?

Apparently, they can.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what good will it do a person if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul? Or what will a person give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his deeds..."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:41 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:42 pm We agree that salvation cannot come to the earthly animal. Its evolution is complete so follows the cycle of dust to dust. Salvation is a gift but is it the gift to animal man or a gift to the soul of man?

To both. The body of man is resurrected, and the soul of man is purged of sin. But both are actions of God, not something from the inherent properties of man.

That's why it's called "new birth," or being "born again." (The better translation is actually "born-from-above," by the way.) It's not a mere offshoot of the old life; it's a radical reconstruction by God Himself. Nothing less than that is "the new birth."

What is the human soul and how can it be understood giving meaning and purpose to human existence?

Two questions you ask. The answers are, "I have ideas, but I don't really know," and "It doesn't."

Can a person lose their soul?

Apparently, they can.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what good will it do a person if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul? Or what will a person give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his deeds..."

Did you mean that the resurrected body is the physical body we are born with?

1 Thessalonians 4

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

I think there is big difference between those having fallen sleep in Jesus and those who are dead spiritually. They are good seed but unable yet to break free of their personality. Sleep is n important idea. It is losing conscious attention. Even the Apostles slept Matthew 26:40

Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Couldn't you men keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.

1 Corinthians 15

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Being born from above is a shock which does effect the physical body as well. But is a first step towards and not the resurrected body

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:43 am Did you mean that the resurrected body is the physical body we are born with?

Not quite. See 1 Cor. 15:42-43.

I think there is big difference between those having fallen sleep in Jesus and those who are dead spiritually.

Completely different, actually. The one is "in Jesus," the other not.

"Do you wish to know God? Learn first to know yourself." - Abba Evagrius the Monk.

It may be true but if we don't know what it means or how to do it, all we are satisfied with is justifying self serving idolatry

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:29 pm "Do you wish to know God? Learn first to know yourself." - Abba Evagrius the Monk.

Yeah, that's just not what the Bible says.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:31 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:29 pm "Do you wish to know God? Learn first to know yourself." - Abba Evagrius the Monk.

Yeah, that's just not what the Bible says.

It may be true but if we don't know what it means or how to do it, all we are satisfied with is justifying self serving idolatry

Is the Bible a historical work or a psychological one? A historical work is analysed by the head aimed at ones personality while the Bible is a psychological one felt in the heart and directed at the New Man and invites the Holy Spirit to give what is necessary for re-birth

The Gospels speak mainly of a possible inner evolution called "re-birth". This is their central idea. ... The Gospels are from beginning to end all about this possible self-evolution. They are psychological documents. They are about the psychology of this possible inner development --that is, about what a man must think, feel, and do in order to reach a new level of understanding. ... Everyone has an outer side that has been developed by his contact with life and an inner side which remains vague, uncertain, undeveloped. ... For that reason the teaching of inner evolution must be so formed that it does not fall solely on the outer side of man. It must fall there first, but be capable of penetrating more deeply and awakening the man himself --the inner, unorganized man. A man evolves internally through his deeper reflection, not through his outer life-controlled side. He evolves through the spirit of his understanding and by inner consent to what he sees as truth. The psychological meanings of the relatively fragmentary teaching recorded in the Gospels refers to this deeper, inner side of everyone.

- Maurice Nicoll; The New Man

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:21 pm Is the Bible a historical work or a psychological one?

Seriously? How about "neither" for an answer?

...self-evolution...

...is not a theme anywhere in the Bible.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:36 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:21 pm Is the Bible a historical work or a psychological one?

Seriously? How about "neither" for an answer?

...self-evolution...

...is not a theme anywhere in the Bible.

The only thing that denies self evolution is the fallen human condition creating the wretched Man. Man became incapable of living by the Laws so the crucifixion and resurrection brought the Spirit and made the second covenant possible

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:36 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:21 pm Is the Bible a historical work or a psychological one?

Seriously? How about "neither" for an answer?

...self-evolution...

...is not a theme anywhere in the Bible.

The only thing that denies self evolution is...

...is the Bible.

Dead is dead. Spiritually dead is worse. Nobody, without God, escapes either.

Nobody "self-saves." In fact, that's contrary to the very implication of "salvation."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:37 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:36 pm
Seriously? How about "neither" for an answer?


...is not a theme anywhere in the Bible.

The only thing that denies self evolution is...

...is the Bible.

Dead is dead. Spiritually dead is worse. Nobody, without God, escapes either.

Nobody "self-saves." In fact, that's contrary to the very implication of "salvation."

But if we are the wretched Man described by Paul and are incapable of self evolution, obviously we need the help of the Holy spirit. Man lost his potential during the fall. I don't see why you object. We are a slave to sin so surrender, admit our nothingness, and become a slave to Christ's help for our own salvation