Philosophy Now Forum

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:14 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:42 pm
Change surely exists in the Physical World but I don't follow the Logic that a Mind is needed for this change to happen. A Mind is needed to Observe change but a Mind is not needed for the change to happen.

That I explain it in the link. If X and Y are two consecutive states of a system. X has to vanishes in order to leave room for Y. There is nothing however when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore there should be a mind that experiences X and causes Y. Mind should exist to cause Y since you cannot get Y out of nothing. Mind however should experience X too in order to cause Y.

Your premise of mutually exclusive states is where your Logic is going wrong. Why does X have to vanish in it's entirety before Y comes into play. I think the proper way to think about this is that X morphs into Y. Properties of X cause Y as X is diminishing. If you are familiar with Electromagnetics then it is similar to how EM waves propagate. The Electric Component is created by the Magnetic Component and the Magnetic Component is created by the Electric Component. So as the Electric Component goes to zero, the fact of the Electric Component is changing is what is creating the Magnetic Component. It is a self propagating phenomenon of two sub phenomena that are coming and going.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:36 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:42 pm
Change surely exists in the Physical World but I don't follow the Logic that a Mind is needed for this change to happen. A Mind is needed to Observe change but a Mind is not needed for the change to happen.

That I explain it in the link. If X and Y are two consecutive states of a system. X has to vanishes in order to leave room for Y. There is nothing however when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore there should be a mind that experiences X and causes Y. Mind should exist to cause Y since you cannot get Y out of nothing. Mind however should experience X too in order to cause Y.

This part of your argument never really made much sense to me.

Can you elaborate with an example? For instance...

I’m struggling to think of something in the natural world which contains two states which switches between them in a binary fashion.

The only examples I can think of are human made systems, such as an electronic system containing some kind of timer and light setup.

Imagine there is an electronic circuit with a timer which switches a light on and off every second.

State X is the initial state of the light being off, state Y when it switches on.

Can you, using your logic, explain how mind is necessary for this light to switch from off in state x, to on in state Y?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:38 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:36 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:44 pm
That I explain it in the link. If X and Y are two consecutive states of a system. X has to vanishes in order to leave room for Y. There is nothing however when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore there should be a mind that experiences X and causes Y. Mind should exist to cause Y since you cannot get Y out of nothing. Mind however should experience X too in order to cause Y.

This part of your argument never really made much sense to me.

Can you elaborate with an example? For instance...

I’m struggling to think of something in the natural world which contains two states which switches between them in a binary fashion.

The only examples I can think of are human made systems, such as an electronic system containing some kind of timer and light setup.

Imagine there is an electronic circuit with a timer which switches a light on and off every second.

State X is the initial state of the light being off, state Y when it switches on.

Can you, using your logic, explain how mind is necessary for this light to switch from off in state x, to on in state Y?

Think of a falling stone. It is in two different states which are defined by the hights.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:25 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:38 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:36 pm
This part of your argument never really made much sense to me.

Can you elaborate with an example? For instance...

I’m struggling to think of something in the natural world which contains two states which switches between them in a binary fashion.

The only examples I can think of are human made systems, such as an electronic system containing some kind of timer and light setup.

Imagine there is an electronic circuit with a timer which switches a light on and off every second.

State X is the initial state of the light being off, state Y when it switches on.

Can you, using your logic, explain how mind is necessary for this light to switch from off in state x, to on in state Y?

Think of a falling stone. It is in two different states which are defined by the hights.

Okay, use the stone analogy in your 3 step outline if you please, how is mind necessary for a stone to fall. And keep in mind, this stone is already falling, and will continue to fall, even if a mind does or doesn’t see it.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:35 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:25 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:38 pm
Think of a falling stone. It is in two different states which are defined by the hights.

Okay, use the stone analogy in your 3 step outline if you please, how is mind necessary for a stone to fall. And keep in mind, this stone is already falling, and will continue to fall, even if a mind does or doesn’t see it.

The stone cannot fall if there is no mind since it vanishes at one point (when the mind experiences it) and it is caused in another point (by the mind). That is basically my argument: If X and Y are two consecutive states of a system. X has to vanishes in order to leave room for Y. There is however nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore there should be a mind that experiences X and causes Y. Mind should exist to cause Y since you cannot get Y out of nothing. Mind however should experience X too in order to cause Y.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:53 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:35 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:25 pm
Okay, use the stone analogy in your 3 step outline if you please, how is mind necessary for a stone to fall. And keep in mind, this stone is already falling, and will continue to fall, even if a mind does or doesn’t see it.

The stone cannot fall if there is no mind since it vanishes at one point (when the mind experiences it) and it is caused in another point (by the mind). That is basically my argument: If X and Y are two consecutive states of a system. X has to vanishes in order to leave room for Y. There is however nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore there should be a mind that experiences X and causes Y. Mind should exist to cause Y since you cannot get Y out of nothing. Mind however should experience X too in order to cause Y.

And yet, objects continue to move, and have continued to move throughout the existence of the universe, stars have orbited galaxies, moving relative to one another, no mind’s were (seemingly) present then, in our solar system, our sun was moving relative to the galactic centre, and over time all the rocky matter formed into planets, continually moving, crashing together, and continuing to rotate about the solar plane.

As earth was formed in this manner, many movements were happening on the planet, tectonic plates were moving beneath the crust of the earth, winds blew things around, and water moved with tides from the moon which was moving around the earth, dragging the water around with its gravity.

And slowly, through some as yet unknown mechanism, the building blocks of life were also moving, maybe around hydrothermal vents, coalescing and combining, colliding and forming until some point when certain processes became self sufficient and began reproducing in ways which led to DNA, the very building blocks of life, which began as simple single called organisms, and slowly changed through evolution into more complex and adaptive forms, which eventually led to sensory transducing cells, which communicated the state of the world into the organism, storing information about what was going on out there, in there. The first mind’s were born, seemingly out of motion, all the while, no mind’s were necessary for this motion.

Unless of course, you think some greater mind was necessary for all this motion? Are you implying that all this motion occurs due to the mind of a god, watching over everything?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:15 am

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:53 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:35 pm
The stone cannot fall if there is no mind since it vanishes at one point (when the mind experiences it) and it is caused in another point (by the mind). That is basically my argument: If X and Y are two consecutive states of a system. X has to vanishes in order to leave room for Y. There is however nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore there should be a mind that experiences X and causes Y. Mind should exist to cause Y since you cannot get Y out of nothing. Mind however should experience X too in order to cause Y.

And yet, objects continue to move, and have continued to move throughout the existence of the universe, stars have orbited galaxies, moving relative to one another, no mind’s were (seemingly) present then, in our solar system, our sun was moving relative to the galactic centre, and over time all the rocky matter formed into planets, continually moving, crashing together, and continuing to rotate about the solar plane.

As earth was formed in this manner, many movements were happening on the planet, tectonic plates were moving beneath the crust of the earth, winds blew things around, and water moved with tides from the moon which was moving around the earth, dragging the water around with its gravity.

And slowly, through some as yet unknown mechanism, the building blocks of life were also moving, maybe around hydrothermal vents, coalescing and combining, colliding and forming until some point when certain processes became self sufficient and began reproducing in ways which led to DNA, the very building blocks of life, which began as simple single called organisms, and slowly changed through evolution into more complex and adaptive forms, which eventually led to sensory transducing cells, which communicated the state of the world into the organism, storing information about what was going on out there, in there. The first mind’s were born, seemingly out of motion, all the while, no mind’s were necessary for this motion.

Unless of course, you think some greater mind was necessary for all this motion? Are you implying that all this motion occurs due to the mind of a god, watching over everything?

I think greater minds or gods sustaining the universe. How? I don't know since lots of micromanagement are involved if you want to sustain each atom in motion.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:14 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:44 pm
That I explain it in the link. If X and Y are two consecutive states of a system. X has to vanishes in order to leave room for Y. There is nothing however when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore there should be a mind that experiences X and causes Y. Mind should exist to cause Y since you cannot get Y out of nothing. Mind however should experience X too in order to cause Y.

Your premise of mutually exclusive states is where your Logic is going wrong. Why does X have to vanish in it's entirety before Y comes into play. I think the proper way to think about this is that X morphs into Y. Properties of X cause Y as X is diminishing. If you are familiar with Electromagnetics then it is similar to how EM waves propagate. The Electric Component is created by the Magnetic Component and the Magnetic Component is created by the Electric Component. So as the Electric Component goes to zero, the fact of the Electric Component is changing is what is creating the Magnetic Component. It is a self propagating phenomenon of two sub phenomena that are coming and going.

The continuous regime is defined as the limit when the interval in the discrete regime tends to zero. It never becomes zero otherwise you cannot do any calculation or you cannot have any change.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:14 pm
Your premise of mutually exclusive states is where your Logic is going wrong. Why does X have to vanish in it's entirety before Y comes into play. I think the proper way to think about this is that X morphs into Y. Properties of X cause Y as X is diminishing. If you are familiar with Electromagnetics then it is similar to how EM waves propagate. The Electric Component is created by the Magnetic Component and the Magnetic Component is created by the Electric Component. So as the Electric Component goes to zero, the fact of the Electric Component is changing is what is creating the Magnetic Component. It is a self propagating phenomenon of two sub phenomena that are coming and going.

The continuous regime is defined as the limit when the interval in the discrete regime tends to zero. It never becomes zero otherwise you cannot do any calculation or you cannot have any change.

But what does this have to do with Mind?

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:19 pm You certainly can do Calculations on Continuous systems.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:19 pm So the Mind that you are talking about is God? You are just saying that nothing can happen without God causing it to happen? That's a belief which could be right but has no basis in Science.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:17 am

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:37 pm
The continuous regime is defined as the limit when the interval in the discrete regime tends to zero. It never becomes zero otherwise you cannot do any calculation or you cannot have any change.

But what does this have to do with Mind?

It is related. Once you accept that cause and effect cannot lay at the same points then it follows that that is the mind which experience and causes as I argued.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:19 pm You certainly can do Calculations on Continuous systems.

I already elaborated on the continuous and discrete regimes.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:19 pm So the Mind that you are talking about is God? You are just saying that nothing can happen without God causing it to happen? That's a belief which could be right but has no basis in Science.

Yes, I am talking about the mind of God/gods. I provide the proof here.