Philosophy Now Forum

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:21 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:23 pm It is obvious that Jesus as portrayed by Gospel had Free Will; Jesus contended against temptation and won. This story depends upon the theme of Free Will that is what the story is all about: of his own free will Jesus chose God .

This entire thread seems to be about some assumption that God knows ALL the future, therefore does not have free will, and since Jesus was God incarnate he also has no free will.

Ridiculous.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus!!

Jesus did not claim to be omniscient like what God was supposed to be: determinism does not imply prediction.

Jesus was not God incarnate; Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.
Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:21 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:23 pm It is obvious that Jesus as portrayed by Gospel had Free Will; Jesus contended against temptation and won. This story depends upon the theme of Free Will that is what the story is all about: of his own free will Jesus chose God .

This entire thread seems to be about some assumption that God knows ALL the future, therefore does not have free will, and since Jesus was God incarnate he also has no free will.

Ridiculous.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus!!

Jesus did not claim to be omniscient like what God was supposed to be: determinism does not imply prediction.

Jesus was not God incarnate; Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.
Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus the Christ!!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:21 am

This entire thread seems to be about some assumption that God knows ALL the future, therefore does not have free will, and since Jesus was God incarnate he also has no free will.

Ridiculous.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus!!

Jesus did not claim to be omniscient like what God was supposed to be: determinism does not imply prediction.

Jesus was not God incarnate; Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.
Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus the Christ!!

I understand theists believe that God is all-knowing. I also understand the doctrine of Free Will is that it's special dispensation from God solely to humans and not to any other species.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:31 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am

Jesus did not claim to be omniscient like what God was supposed to be: determinism does not imply prediction.

Jesus was not God incarnate; Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.
Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus the Christ!!

I understand theists believe that God is all-knowing. I also understand the doctrine of Free Will is that it's special dispensation from God solely to humans and not to any other species.

Sounds like bollocks to me.

"All-knowing"? - what does that mean to you?

By "all-knowing" - sure, from what I have experienced of this God entity is that it is likely to know everything contained in the minds of wo/men, and also likely to know everything within the domain of what wo\men consider reality.

That we can ask the question, that we can puzzle about it and debate it answers the question in any reaonable mind. But actually, the question is never, "Does the Son of God have free will." Of course He does. It's "What have you done with yours?"

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Here's the thing: to play around with questions of free will is a luxury. It's even sometimes a corrupt luxury, because we do it in a dilatory and unserious way, just for fun. But there are some things it's really not smart to play around with, and giving children dynamite pales in comparison to the folly of talking about the Judgment in a careless, callous way.

We will all know the answer to both questions, one day. Of that, I am absolutely certain. We will know what the will of God was, and we will know what we did with our own free will. And of all things, it was never, never an intellectual game.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:50 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:06 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 am
Here there is the argument: Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

Ignore my prior post, i had not read you above 10 minutes ago. so thank you for stating your argument above, and now i understand what it is.

let me parse it though.

Jesus is God

As an Athiest i dissagree, i think he existed and as just a good man, not God nor His son. of course Christians dissagree. and thats fine by me.

I'm not a Christian. just a smuck.

God has foreknowledge

yep, i concur that if there is a God or Gods they would have such powers.

Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free

?????????????? clarify please.

i view Jesus as man born the normal way via Mark, or even if via his dad being God, those 3 works do not equate Jesus as God and the former had no foreknowledge of anything (refer to when the end times will happen - per Gosp of Matt - jesus says only his daddy knows when (so he does not know!), and note Jesus' fear of his own death, and not understanding why in gosp of Mark.

of course in John's Gospel Jesus is more robot than human, has all the answers and does not fear his death.

I know your view about Jesus being a normal man who was born naturally. I am however arguing against people who think that He is God and has foreknowledge.

I understand sir, just saying that those your rail against are ignoring the Synopic Gospels and only valuing/affirm Gospel of John.

folks will beleive what they wish to - like the great Simon and Garfinkel song - the boxer. "one beleives what he wishes and dissbleives the rest"

- as a logical person that values objectivity, and accuracy, all i did was point out the differences between the 4 gospels - with 2 theologies, (mark/matt/luke) - the Synopics only dissagree on the who the father of Jesus is - they agree upon his nature, that he is the Son of God.

only John is the outsider per the theology/nature of Christ.

---------

i don't give a shit what anyone beleives - as a libertarian i affirm beying at the moon and drinking blood if that turns you on. more power to you.

i only care about accruracy - of history, critic of literature/etc.

my prior post was just such, per the "gospels". which do not have a unified theology per Jesus. - John is the outsider and you cannot - not if one is honest - circle that square...................though billions of Christians have does just that for the last 1800 yrs.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:20 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:32 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:33 pm Jesus the man did not have Free Will , but Christ the God had Free Will because God is uncaused.

that sound very Pauline, you a Paulist?

I don't know what a Paulist is

That Jesus was not Christ, the former died on the Cross, the latter Rose.

and that Faith = salvation, works mean nothing.

uwot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:38 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:18 pmReligion worked well when social classes and economies were rigidly fixed, and social superiors in local communities took it for granted the people who lived in the big house along with the vicar distributed charity to the poor.

Well, when you say that something "worked well", you have to know what you want it to do before you can judge its efficacy. Christianity was very successful at maintaining the structure you mention above. A few parables were key: "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." So it might seem a bit unfair, but don't worry because: "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." So in the meantime, be a good serf and "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." What christianity fails to point out is the reason the people who lived in the big house could afford to distribute charity was that they had acquired all the best resources by violence. If supporting a hierarchy in which a small elite exploit other human beings, then yep, religion worked well.

yep.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:21 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:23 pm It is obvious that Jesus as portrayed by Gospel had Free Will; Jesus contended against temptation and won. This story depends upon the theme of Free Will that is what the story is all about: of his own free will Jesus chose God .

This entire thread seems to be about some assumption that God knows ALL the future, therefore does not have free will, and since Jesus was God incarnate he also has no free will.

Ridiculous.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus!!

not so, the "theory" is that God knows all potential futures, and man being a moral has freewill limited to his life-surroundings, so "god" knows all possible freewill futures man can take.

so nothing is predetermined, "freewill" for men is conserved, and "god" knows possible futures men can take.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am

Jesus was not God incarnate;

He was in Gospel of John, and Jesus = christ BTW in that work (and the other 3 BTW - though the other 3 do not claim christ was god)

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

per John Christ is YHWH.

read its preamble madam.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

yes, and irrelevant.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.

all 4 gospels (and the 5th gospel of peter) affirm them as the same persons.

unlike Saul/Paul - but that is for another thread - who viewed those 2 beings as not the same person. valued his christ, but ignored jesus.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

hopefully.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:21 am

This entire thread seems to be about some assumption that God knows ALL the future, therefore does not have free will, and since Jesus was God incarnate he also has no free will.

Ridiculous.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus!!

Jesus did not claim to be omniscient like what God was supposed to be: determinism does not imply prediction.

Jesus was not God incarnate; Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.
Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus the Christ!!

refer to my prior post on the matter.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:31 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am

Jesus did not claim to be omniscient like what God was supposed to be: determinism does not imply prediction.

Jesus was not God incarnate; Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.
Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus the Christ!!

I understand theists believe that God is all-knowing. I also understand the doctrine of Free Will is that it's special dispensation from God solely to humans and not to any other species.

a weakness in Western Relgions is that they are human centric and do not take note of the nature of other animal life (unlike Eastern Religions - so the Eastern Religions win out in my mind here).

all the other animals are just plants - though the assirian cows wore sackcloth (so were holy) per Jonah while he cursed his god for providing him shade of a plant.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:21 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:23 pm It is obvious that Jesus as portrayed by Gospel had Free Will; Jesus contended against temptation and won. This story depends upon the theme of Free Will that is what the story is all about: of his own free will Jesus chose God .

This entire thread seems to be about some assumption that God knows ALL the future, therefore does not have free will, and since Jesus was God incarnate he also has no free will.

Ridiculous.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus!!

not so, the "theory" is that God knows all potential futures, and man being a moral has freewill limited to his life-surroundings, so "god" knows all possible freewill futures man can take.

What "theory" !!? - who made that one up!?

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am so nothing is predetermined, "freewill" for men is conserved, and "god" knows possible futures men can take.

Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:07 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:21 am

This entire thread seems to be about some assumption that God knows ALL the future, therefore does not have free will, and since Jesus was God incarnate he also has no free will.

Ridiculous.

God does not know the entire future for one. If IT did, then EVERYTHING is predetermined there is NO free will for ANYBODY, let alone Jesus!!

not so, the "theory" is that God knows all potential futures, and man being a moral has freewill limited to his life-surroundings, so "god" knows all possible freewill futures man can take.

What "theory" !!? - who made that one up!?

omniscience.

man being on earth - is set in place, and per his nature can not act infinately - can;t fly, nor breathe under water, and is also bound by Time - per the arrow of time and the present.

all his actions are limited by both his place, his time and his nature.

God being the author of Time and place and the universe, is orders of magnitude higher, he knows all times all places and all universes, so know all the potential actions of each man on earth from millions of yrs ago to today to millions of yrs in the future seems a little thing to me - per God (as you know i am an Athiest here - i'm explaing the concept that YHWH can know all possible actions - and know all alternative futures of all 7 billion of us from today to millions of yrs in the future.................while also allowing all 7 billion to be free agents to act as they shall via frewill).

God being the creature of the universe(s) and time, knows all possible timelines, whjile allowing men/aliens/animals/alien animals to act freely with the bounds of thier nature - which God can take into account - and so knows all actions you, i, my cat, etc can take from right now to our deaths - all trillions of possible actions - "He" knows all of them all the branches - go left, no right, etc.......from this second to the next hour to 50 yrs from now - each second, all branches of alternatives - to near infinate alternative futures - quadillions of alternative futures. your god knows all of them because man's nature is not infinate, but finite in his decisiions, he can make them freely (freewill, but your god knows all of the options the can take before he takes them.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am so nothing is predetermined, "freewill" for men is conserved, and "god" knows possible futures men can take.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:07 am Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.

not so!!!!!!!

your God know all possible futures!


Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.

I re-read your above, and you might be right here.

food for thought on that one. so if man has freewill and your god knows all the actions a man can take, if your god allows man freewill he cannot know which action said man will take (though knows all outcomes knowing all possible futures)

so your God cant be omniscient - if he allows man free action (or even a beetle free action).

what can i say, i offer no answer on this one, i'm just a dumb athiest.

thanks for reply nontheless. how is Australia these days, all the fires are overwith from a few months ago?

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:40 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am

Jesus was not God incarnate;

He was in Gospel of John, and Jesus = christ BTW in that work (and the other 3 BTW - though the other 3 do not claim christ was god)

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.

per John Christ is YHWH.

read its preamble madam.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.

yes, and irrelevant.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.

all 4 gospels (and the 5th gospel of peter) affirm them as the same persons.

unlike Saul/Paul - but that is for another thread - who viewed those 2 beings as not the same person. valued his christ, but ignored jesus.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Some Xians can separate history from myth without devaluing either.

hopefully.

When interpreting The Bible and particularly in the case of Jesus and Christ, interpreting the Gospels, it's silly to ignore what audience these authors were writing for. John wrote mainly for devotions: Matthew, Mark, and Luke wrote a mixture of what then passed for history, and also explanation and description of a more sophisticated morality than had previously been devised.

NB when I say 'myth' I refer to

myth
/mɪθ/
noun
1.
a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
"ancient Celtic myths"
Similar:
folk tale
story
folk story
legend
tale
fable
saga
allegory
parable
tradition
lore
folklore
mythos
mythus
2.
a widely held but false belief or idea.
"the belief that evening primrose oil helps to cure eczema is a myth, according to dermatologists"

I refer to the first and more interesting meaning, with the added proviso that myths are sometimes not defunct but can improve the lives of moderns. The myth of Christ is such a myth which can improve the lives of moderns. In order for this great myth to do so it's best to take the advice of Jesus himself and look at the fruits of good men's and bad mens' lives.