Philosophy Now Forum

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:36 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:31 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:46 pm

Russia gave a very big shit actually.
To mobilise the biggest army in history on the other side of Asia was no mean feat. Whist the US was basically bust, tired and weary of island hopping, and in no position to invade on a fight to the last man basis.
The war did not end because of the bomb.
The US had spent $2billion and wanted to test BOTH bombs. They could well have waited for full reports of Hiroshima to reach the Japanese government but chose not to wait. If anything they feared that Japan might surrender to Russia or surrender before they managed to live test bomb design number two. The full results were not known for a long while, as it happened.
Japan feared occupation by Russia and surrendered to the US.

you both have a mind and know history so i really do to discuss these thing with you Sir. not sure why you and emanual kant hate each other - that bet you 2 i like both of you - per your posts, i find value.

not to the particular of your post here:

mobizing the russians to syberia by june 45, no big deal.

and they did so.

per america, we are war weary, but not so much as to fear invading Japan itself, we would have invade Japan itself had the bombs not worked.

and no - the death count would have been lower than the conventional wisdom (all civilians with pikes wouid fight to the death) - not so IMO - had we invaded Japan the civilians not being "Samari" would have mostly surrendered, so the 1/2 million death count would have been much lower.


I fully support the first bomb - little boy - the dropping of (I value international law so not killing civilians - droping the bomb outside of the city to show our power would be my prefered )

and YES after the first bomb (the japs had their physics to look over the land, and they said in effect, ya is was an atomic bomb) - i think Japan would have surrendered with just that first bomb given time to process the data (I think we should have given them 2 weel to think it over - and i think they would have surrendered by then).

I think we rushed it! - so ya (you know the world is not B/W......so the per me the first bombing was apt, but not the second - 3 days is not enough time to process (and we had 4 more also!!!!!!)

I'm a nice guy, and think 3 days was too soon for the second bomb (and think those in power knew this too and just were dicks and wanted to see the affects of a pluniom bomb "Drop the second before they can asses the first so we can compare the biological effects" was their thinking IMO).

So ya Fat Man was immoral prior to mid August, and was rushed to see and compare with the first uraniam bomb.

........................

so to clearify, as a self proclaimed moral person, I fine with Little Boy (to save an invasion of Japan) - but not with Fat Man dropped 3 day later.

I'm ok with dropping Fat Man mid August, but think the japs wouid understand little man and would have surrendered prior to mid august and so no need for the second bomb.

-- and yes i do not think i an smarter than those in power at the time, and yes i thing Truman/company did and understood and rushed the second bomb imorally to see the long term effects.

ya its cynical, but i think logic. ;-(

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:36 pm It's ok, he will never call you the 'r' word because it's 'only the French'. You can say 'fuck the French' to your heart's content.

you really are a bitch, even when i offer/side with you on posts - you play the scorpion. and ya you know full well my GF of the last 3 yrs - since i've been here is a Black lady - and I'm a white guy - you know all this.

so play the bitch (I suspect you've had 2-3 decades of practice (sorry for your offspring - i affirm Ezekiel, "son is not asshole if dad was" (place mom in your case)

I don't give a shit if anyone call me a racist, becuase i know i'm not.

as i know you are bitch.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:36 pm So, fuck the Chinese. Fuck them for their disgusting and cruel markets, and fuck them for giving the world this revolting virus, even though they knew that this would happen (it's happened multiple times before) but refused to stop their abhorrent practices, and fuck them for stealthily buying the planet over decades, effectively enabling China to hold the world to ransom and make itself above any criticism (or else).

?? you talking/ranting to me?

I respect the Chinese, know all about Nanking. Ya Chinese, fuck Empirical Japan (and Vichy France)

Viri? ya they show up in places all over the world, no conpiracy needed. this last one just seems to have showed up in Wuhan.



you really are all about talking about "triggers" and not talking about important stuff - from history/politics/etc..........just stuff - you seem more fixated upon fluff rather than stuff to validate your psychology


-- ok you do you and i'll do me.

Sculpture, you more a person of Stuff of Fluff, if the former i welcome future discourse, if the latter................um no. but wish you well as i do Veg.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:21 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:02 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:29 am

You aren't anti war. Neither is sculptor. Very few people are. According to mealy mouthed hypocrites like sculptor we are all 'humans' therefore the mere mention of race, culture or Nationality on his part is blatant hypocrisy.

I've noted Scuplture's posts, and though i agree with 1/2 of then, and not the remainder. I know from his posts that he is not a Hypocrite, and so why i like him.

That's settled then, since you said it
Of course he's a hypocrite. You only like him because he hates Israel, just like you do.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:57 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:36 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:31 am

you both have a mind and know history so i really do to discuss these thing with you Sir. not sure why you and emanual kant hate each other - that bet you 2 i like both of you - per your posts, i find value.

not to the particular of your post here:

mobizing the russians to syberia by june 45, no big deal.

and they did so.

per america, we are war weary, but not so much as to fear invading Japan itself, we would have invade Japan itself had the bombs not worked.

and no - the death count would have been lower than the conventional wisdom (all civilians with pikes wouid fight to the death) - not so IMO - had we invaded Japan the civilians not being "Samari" would have mostly surrendered, so the 1/2 million death count would have been much lower.


I fully support the first bomb - little boy - the dropping of (I value international law so not killing civilians - droping the bomb outside of the city to show our power would be my prefered )

and YES after the first bomb (the japs had their physics to look over the land, and they said in effect, ya is was an atomic bomb) - i think Japan would have surrendered with just that first bomb given time to process the data (I think we should have given them 2 weel to think it over - and i think they would have surrendered by then).

I think we rushed it! - so ya (you know the world is not B/W......so the per me the first bombing was apt, but not the second - 3 days is not enough time to process (and we had 4 more also!!!!!!)

I'm a nice guy, and think 3 days was too soon for the second bomb (and think those in power knew this too and just were dicks and wanted to see the affects of a pluniom bomb "Drop the second before they can asses the first so we can compare the biological effects" was their thinking IMO).

So ya Fat Man was immoral prior to mid August, and was rushed to see and compare with the first uraniam bomb.

........................

so to clearify, as a self proclaimed moral person, I fine with Little Boy (to save an invasion of Japan) - but not with Fat Man dropped 3 day later.

I'm ok with dropping Fat Man mid August, but think the japs wouid understand little man and would have surrendered prior to mid august and so no need for the second bomb.

-- and yes i do not think i an smarter than those in power at the time, and yes i thing Truman/company did and understood and rushed the second bomb imorally to see the long term effects.

ya its cynical, but i think logic. ;-(

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:36 pm It's ok, he will never call you the 'r' word because it's 'only the French'. You can say 'fuck the French' to your heart's content.

you really are a bitch, even when i offer/side with you on posts - you play the scorpion. and ya you know full well my GF of the last 3 yrs - since i've been here is a Black lady - and I'm a white guy - you know all this.

so play the bitch (I suspect you've had 2-3 decades of practice (sorry for your offspring - i affirm Ezekiel, "son is not asshole if dad was" (place mom in your case)

I don't give a shit if anyone call me a racist, becuase i know i'm not.

as i know you are bitch.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:36 pm So, fuck the Chinese. Fuck them for their disgusting and cruel markets, and fuck them for giving the world this revolting virus, even though they knew that this would happen (it's happened multiple times before) but refused to stop their abhorrent practices, and fuck them for stealthily buying the planet over decades, effectively enabling China to hold the world to ransom and make itself above any criticism (or else).

?? you talking/ranting to me?

I respect the Chinese, know all about Nanking. Ya Chinese, fuck Empirical Japan (and Vichy France)

Viri? ya they show up in places all over the world, no conpiracy needed. this last one just seems to have showed up in Wuhan.



you really are all about talking about "triggers" and not talking about important stuff - from history/politics/etc..........just stuff - you seem more fixated upon fluff rather than stuff to validate your psychology


-- ok you do you and i'll do me.

Sculpture, you more a person of Stuff of Fluff, if the former i welcome future discourse, if the latter................um no. but wish you well as i do Veg.

I didn't call you a racist. You completely missed my point. And getting off on a certain colour of skin doesn't stop someone being a racist (not that I'm saying you are one, just pointing out the lack of logic in your 'argument').

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:40 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:57 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:36 pm




you really are a bitch, even when i offer/side with you on posts - you play the scorpion. and ya you know full well my GF of the last 3 yrs - since i've been here is a Black lady - and I'm a white guy - you know all this.

so play the bitch (I suspect you've had 2-3 decades of practice (sorry for your offspring - i affirm Ezekiel, "son is not asshole if dad was" (place mom in your case)

I don't give a shit if anyone call me a racist, becuase i know i'm not.

as i know you are bitch.




?? you talking/ranting to me?

I respect the Chinese, know all about Nanking. Ya Chinese, fuck Empirical Japan (and Vichy France)

Viri? ya they show up in places all over the world, no conpiracy needed. this last one just seems to have showed up in Wuhan.



you really are all about talking about "triggers" and not talking about important stuff - from history/politics/etc..........just stuff - you seem more fixated upon fluff rather than stuff to validate your psychology


-- ok you do you and i'll do me.

Sculpture, you more a person of Stuff of Fluff, if the former i welcome future discourse, if the latter................um no. but wish you well as i do Veg.

I didn't call you a racist. You completely missed my point.

I did, for i thought you were calling me a racist.

welcome your clarification of your point i failed to understand.

and thanks for not calling me a racist, though i thought you were.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:40 am And getting off on a certain colour of skin doesn't stop someone being a racist (not that I'm saying you are one, just pointing out the lack of logic in your 'argument').

Racism has no color, Uganda via Edi Amin(sp) - all non blacks to be persecuted as lesser persons (Indians in that particular).

or the "cut the tree" Hutus per the Tutsi in the 90's

Racism is an equal opportunity employer, it welcomes all races and skin shades - for those with the clan mindset, its a-ok.

- and ya I do think Israel is a racist State, and no I'm not antiSemite (many jews do not view the state of israel is their YHWH's fullfillment of a land for the jews). I do not now the percentages that do vs those that do not (I'd like to know if you can provide a link - for my education). i just know that many Jews, inculding the fundie types to not view the political nation state as YHWH's will - but just a political body................which has nothing to do with whenever their God eventually makes a place for them in a land -wherever/if ever.

I just know that the politics in Israel is discrimatory, where the non-jewish Israelis are allowed 2nd class rights, and in the illigal occupied territories of the WB - the Jews living there have full Israeli citizenship rights (Hebron Jews) - and folks living in the same town not jewish (Hebron Muslims/christians) have not the same rights, instead they have the rights under military rule, and the military uses Otoman laws (Ottoman empire ended 100 yr ago - but somehow those laws are still used against the non-jews in the lands the Israelis illegally occupy).

Israel is the last South Africa, its that simple Madam.

and i did not like SA in the 80's any more than i've liked Israel since the late 80's and shes only gotten worse since then.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:26 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:46 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:31 pm

yep, and it was over by summer of 42 - 4 months before Stalingrad - for the Germans. by summer of 42 the Russians were able to move their machinery beyond the urals, and so game over.

Germany had the war won! - IF they took out England (Sea lion - and not half arsed (i wish the english would surrender/play franch and offer an armistice) - but full bore invasion of england, take her and Germany had the war won. No "base" for Americans to assemble - ya technically we could do so via Iceland, but policitaly with England now Greater Germany, we would just not declair war on Germany and soley upon Japan due to Pearl Harbour. Hitler's arrogance (i can take on the whole world - instead of the reality i can take on 1/2 of the world - fucked him over).

Had He taken England and then invaded Russia in say 42 or 43? IMO - due to the Russian's reply in 41 i think the Russian would have beat his ass anyway. Hitler's best option was to divide Poland via russsia - which he did, then take out Britian, then Spain and Porutgal and the Swiz - have al lof Western Europe, and never attack Russia. Russia would have looked the other way and we would have had a different historical timeline.

BTW Normandy, US/Canadian/UK invasion of britanny, - in truth i think the higher ups understood that Germany was "finished" via the Russian's by 43, and only invaded to keep the russians from taking all of europe instead of the 1/2 eastern part they did do. i.e. it was a political dicision rather than the miliary one by 44. you will not read/hear this from anyone per the "history books" - just my opinion due to knowing the Russians had the war won and could and would have taken all of Europe (by mid 42 the Germans lost the war on the Eastern Front).

per Japan, the Russian did not give 2 shit's - and why the american dropped the first bomb while the rushies were doing nothing..............then all of the sudden they acted and took hundreds of miles in manchuria in 1/2 week.

then took the Kuril's(and still have them) AFTER Japan surrendered - in full violation of international law.






no, Japan would have won the war - like germany - by never attacking america and just instead taking the oil imbargo as a bitter pill, and sucking it up. they could have survived as a "greater japan - with korea, and china as part of their empire, then 10-20 yrs later fostering better relations with the us and removing the embargo. but like Germany they got arrogant - attack Russia per Germans, attack America per the Japanese.

same mentality - arrogance, rather than cuting your loses and appreciating your gains to date, and then consolidating your empire.

the field was rosy for both the japs and the germans prior to 1941, and a little humility would have perserved both empires into posterity.

but, no - too arrogant to settle, and so we had ww2.

fine by me, both were dicks, good riddance to both reichs (eastern and western).




yes D-day was fairground, no Kursk was not the turning point - the germans lost the war 18 months earlier, by spring 42.

and ya 85-percent of all death was on the Eastern Front, the Russians and Germans there did more dying than the rest of us - esp the Russian FYI.

so ya and no, ya D-day was a picnic, no battle of Kursk was not the turning point.

BTW - per the Jap, they lost the War in June of 42 - lost 1/2 of their carriers in 5 minutes in midway, game over for the japs via midway, they should have offered an armitice within a week of that route - they did not due to Pride, and we might not have accepted due to the same Pride. but it would have saved lives had they and we in turn - sat down to end that war.

Russia gave a very big shit actually.

per Japan? no.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:38 pm To mobilise the biggest army in history on the other side of Asia was no mean feat.

Stalin mobalized, only after he won the war in the West. he did not care about fighting Japan, and America needled him to start the fight with the Japs for 2 yrs before he finally did.

as he should (ignore our pleas to attack Japan), per Russia the only relivent issue is the destruction of Germany.

the Russian sloth moved pretty fast after Little Boy though!!!! (coincidence i'm sure)

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:38 pm Whist the US was basically bust, tired and weary of island hopping, and in no position to invade on a fight to the last man basis.

Historical revision on your part Sir.

you assurtions are pure crap and not accurate.

US and USSR had parallel - death-war weary burdens, as well as manufacturing progression.

- yes America was war weary due to island hopping, but at the same time we had increased manufacturing of war machinery unmatched - USSR was a close second (and so why i say their death/manufacturing experience is similar to mine/America's )- USSR died more the rest of us - so do not say my nation paid anything near what they did per the death count - we (Americans) got off easy in the per death count/machine of death manufacturing count).

FACT is Operation Overload was well planned and would have happened if the Atom bombs "did not work"

yep, America, would have invaded by land Japan, and it would have taken 4-6 months - end of the war by Feb 46.

and at less death count than the hysterical view of all civilians become samari, no, with 3-4 week - securing the beaches, the japanese civilians would be like all others civilians and not fight to the death via some sort of oriental samari mindset - instead they would be like normal humans - tired and hungry, and thinking about their kids - and would have surrendered (like anyone else).

I know the death count of the Soviets in ww2 - more than all the rest in ww2 for both sides (and why the Russians would have beat the Germans - without the US getting involved) - only they were willing to pay the price and did - and would have won - even if the rest of us - did nothing and instead sat on our asses while the German Nazis made war all over the plase.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:38 pm The war did not end because of the bomb.

yes it did.

we had the morality for the first one, but not the second.

Japan would have surrendered - given 2 weeks to understand what it was - and then surrender.

WE (America) rushed it to only 3 days (why so? - there was no need, ww2 was won by then).I think out of immoral motives, We (America knew Japan would surrender after understanding the nature of Little boy) rushed the second bomb (Plutonium based - vs Little boy's Uranium) - as a long term population test case for radiation effects,

ya i said it, i think my Nation dropped the second bomb immorally - knowingly and willingly.

and

ya i support the first bomb as valid and enough and moral to end that war. so first bomb needed, second not.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:38 pm The US had spent $2billion and wanted to test BOTH bombs.

what you talking about Willis?

do you know about Port Chicago?

the Mark 1?

Truk (target of the Mark 1) - 1-2 yrs before Little Boy..................float a boat..............no plane.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:38 pm They could well have waited for full reports of Hiroshima to reach the Japanese government but chose not to wait. If anything they feared that Japan might surrender to Russia or surrender before they managed to live test bomb design number two. The full results were not known for a long while, as it happened.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!


as i said prior, i support little Boy, and not Fat man.

after the prior bomb, the Japanese (they had Physcists - and they understood and affirmed it was an atom bomb.

america wanted to drop the second one - to see the differing effects bet Ur and Plutonium (my oppinion).

and so we immorally dropped the second.

--------- as i said before, i affirm 1st bomb - dropping it would have ended the war, and no need for Overload nor the second bomb.

i reject the second bomb as immoral - it was rushed knowingly.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:38 pm Japan feared occupation by Russia and surrendered to the US.

nonesense, i thought you knew history, but now know you do not.

Japan fought 3 yrs with America - not Russia - and the America kicked Japans ass post Coral Sea - 5-6 battles, all of which America won - from 42-44!!!!!!!!

and you are claiming by 45 Japan was worried about Russia!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol - you full of shit and fake history bubba.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:32 pm
America was fucked.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:32 pm Exhausted from a long campaign , island hopping. Russia had fresh troops.

gaffo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:09 pm You are clueless.
Look into what was happening in Manchuria.
Russia had the largest army assembled in history and had taken the whole of Manchuria is two days.
But obviously Japan was not concerned about Russia!!! LOL
It was Russia that ended the war on Europe and it was Russia that ending the war in the East Asia.
Your problem is that you have only looked at the Allied side of the argument.
You might want to consider the evidence before you insult people.
Top

Japan was done by 45, the Russian mopped up Manchuria and took it - due to America decimating the Japanese Empire for the 3 privious years.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:15 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:09 pm You are clueless.
Look into what was happening in Manchuria.
Russia had the largest army assembled in history and had taken the whole of Manchuria is two days.
But obviously Japan was not concerned about Russia!!! LOL
It was Russia that ended the war on Europe and it was Russia that ending the war in the East Asia.
Your problem is that you have only looked at the Allied side of the argument.
You might want to consider the evidence before you insult people.
Top

Japan was done by 45, the Russian mopped up Manchuria and took it - due to America decimating the Japanese Empire for the 3 privious years.

You are suffering from a lack of joined up thinking. The reason given for the bombs was that Japan was not fucked

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:15 pm and was going to fight till the last man.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:15 pm It was either fucked or was not. Which is it?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:15 pm The main reason for BOTH bombs was that they had a convenient place to test both bombs, because Japan was indeed fucked.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:15 pm Their last stand was in Manchuria.

gaffo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:28 pm if the Russian tried that in 41 it would have been a different story.

gaffo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:28 pm BTW if you knew history, you'd know the Japanese moral was so low that they barely fought agianst the Russians in August 45.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:29 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:28 pm BTW if you knew history, you'd know the Japanese moral was so low that they barely fought agianst the Russians in August 45.

Knowing history as we all do, we will remember that the Japanese were very staunch royalists and their diplomatic end game until that time was to avoid unconditional surrender so that they could secure the future of their monarch. But they were well aware that if their emperor fell into Russian hands he would be executed. Given that Russia had declared war and was on the way to invade, while America had demonstrated an ability to sit offshore and pound the fuck out of them with megabombs, their best case scenario of conditional surrender with guarantees was a bust, because of both things... the atom bombs and the looming Russians.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:29 pm Their worst case scenario of territorial partition and a dead emperor was looking very likely. They definitely would have known that had they waited until the Soviets put a single pair of boots on their shore before surrendering, the Russians and Americans would race to get their share of Japan to dominate.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:29 pm So the territorial partition would be a given from that point, which itself would be unavoidable if America didn't launch an immediate ground invasion, but which the Americans seemed to have to do, what with all the sky murder stuff they were getting up to from a safe distance.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:29 pm Thus, they surrendered without condition on the day it became clear they had lost their last hope of tempting the Americans with any conditions